Full Episode Transcript

Dr. Ashley Blackington (00:01.08)

All right. Hello and welcome back to the AND/BOTH podcast. I am here today with Paige. She is from the Instagram page. @sheisapaigeturner and she is here to talk about, um, we're going to talk a little bit about that, but first of all, um, can you thank you for coming and, welcome.

Paige (00:22.393)

Thanks. Thank you. Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (00:26.478)

And so you are a mom of four, I believe.

Paige (00:30.201)

Yes, I have four kids.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (00:32.814)

and how old are they?

Paige (00:34.457)

Um, my oldest is almost seven and then an almost six year old and almost two year old. I say almost because it's like a month away. So, um, and then a three and a half year old. Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (00:45.55)

Nice. I love that, like that, that almost birthday period where you're like as when they're really, yeah, yeah, exactly. And I like the idea too. It's like, we do it so much when they're little and then all of a sudden they get to that like six, seven and they're like, I'm seven and a half. And you're like, that's yours. You can take that and run with it.

Paige (00:51.001)

They're not really one, but yeah. Yes, totally, totally. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (01:13.262)

So I found your page on Instagram. I know that you do TikTok as well. And that's a whole... I stay away from TikTok. Honest to God, I'm afraid of it. I feel like I am 107. And it's...

Paige (01:24.441)

I hear ya.

Paige (01:28.441)

It's a, yeah, it's a weirder place to be because it's so algorithm driven, right? Everything's algorithm driven, but TikTok, it's like its own beast of like feeding you content based on what you like or comment on or what you engage with. And it's, it can be kind of scary, like how accurate the algorithm is with what it shows you.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (01:32.462)

Mm -hmm.

Paige (01:53.113)

And you know, it's just a whole different place, right? But each platform is so different. TikTok is so different than Instagram. Just like who's on it, how they interact with creators, are they kind or not kind, right? Every platform is so very different.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (02:02.326)

Yes, very, very different. And so your Instagram is a lot about pointing out the things that are happening every day and happening around us when it comes to caregiving and parenting and expectations and things like that. So how did you, what led you to start this?

Paige (02:22.807)

It happened really organically and unintentionally. I was a lurker on every social media platform. I've always just been a lurker. I don't post much. You know, on my personal Instagram, I post like one picture every six months. I'm just not, I was never super active on social media, but I consumed it a lot. And when I started on TikTok, I started on TikTok well before Instagram. I did so because we were using it at work, because we use it for marketing. And it was a really interesting, acquisition tool for new customers. And I kind of decided I was like, I'm going to dabble. I'm going to post a video. And I remember posting a video and my first video went well. Like I posted a video and it had like three. Yeah, it had like 300 ,000 views. And I was like, oh, OK, maybe like people are interested in. Yeah, this perspective. And it was very much just commentary on my life as a mom and specifically like a mom with a job. And, you know, I just posted random stuff.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (03:13.382)

Like, ooh! God!

Paige (03:30.489)

Right, nothing crazy, it was really just for fun. But I started to gain some traction and so, you know, continued to post and have fun with it. And then I'd say probably six months into it, I went like viral viral for the first time and it was a video about being a working mother and why I choose to work and not stay home with my kids and what that decision looked like for our family. And so I talk a lot about working and being a parent. I talk a lot about the inequities that exist in most heteronormative households. I talk a ton about the cost of childcare and the childcare crisis. And so, you know, all of these things are so tied to one another. And once I started really kind of leaning into these things that I was already passionate about, I really kind of found that it was resonating and especially with millennial moms. That is really my demographic. The people who follow me are 96 or 97 % women. They're mostly millennial women. But I do still get a lot of comments from younger women who are like, thank God, like, I'm so glad you're talking about this, because I would have never known and wouldn't know how to prepare for it. And so yeah, it really just kind of happened, right. And I didn't start posting on Instagram until probably eight months into it, because my friend was like, you have to be on both platforms. If you actually want to do this, you got to get on both. And I was like, Instagram was actually scary to me because I was like 1. people I know in real life are gonna see this one. I like, I know that, right? Whereas on TikTok, it's not everybody's on TikTok. And so, but I was like, you know what, I'm going viral anyway. So people are seeing me anyways, and it's just happening. And so I made that switch and I'm glad I did because the community on Instagram in particular of Millennial Moms is really, really amazing. Like the people who engage and share their stories and it's just been a really, yeah, I've really enjoyed the experience of being able to connect with other women and continue to kind of share this message as much as I can.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (05:29.55)

Yeah, I love that. First of all, that I love what you talk about and how you talk about it, because it is this notion of like, I always thought about. So my oldest is she's a little bit older. She's 11 and my youngest is four. And I always thought that motherhood is this like it's like a Hollywood movie set. And so like before you have children, you're like in the set looking at it, it's like an old west or something like that, like an old western. And then after you have children, then you get to go behind and realize that like this whole thing is held up by like that two by four and that sandbag and like that's it.

Paige (05:58.987)

Okay. Right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (06:20.534)

And that's what you have in American motherhood in terms of like resources and all of those things because of leave and because of the cost of childcare and because of the decisions that we have to make and the impossibility of so many of those choices. And so people wanting to do things, anything, people wanting to work, people wanting to stay home, people wanting to do all of that, there's no like clear path to ease. There's no right choice because the right choice is the right choice for you and the right choice for your kids and the right choice for your family. And it's hard to make that choice or to know what that choice is when you're pregnant before you have kids because it's that notion of like, I was a perfect parent before I had children because you just don't know. And so people are finding your platform. Like I was watching one of your videos talking about like the cost of daycare where you live.

Paige (06:55.649)

Mm -hmm.

Paige (07:01.753)

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (07:16.494)

And it's that notion of, like people say something is expensive, but expensive is relative versus like, here's a piece of paper and this is how much it costs for my kid to attend this. Oh, and by the way, they're going to be sick and oh, and by the way, everything's going to get wrecked and oh, and by the way, like all of these things are happening.

Paige (07:21.017)

Totally. Yeah, the childcare one, you know, my first viral video was because I said, hey, I pay $60 ,000 a year in childcare. And that is incredibly privileged, right? I understand most women and families don't have the finances to be able to do that, right? My partner and I can, and we do, and we have our reasons for doing so. But more importantly, people are like, wow, you must be paying for like the top notch best childcare center in the world. And I'm like, no, I have four kids.

And on average in the state of Massachusetts where I live, it's $20 ,000 a year for a child to attend any sort of childcare. And so actually 60K is a deal. Like it's a steal for four kids, right? Everybody who lives in Massachusetts will message me and be like, oh my God, you only pay that? I'm like, right, exactly. Because exactly they're like, how are you pulling this off? And that's the thing I think, and one of the reasons I talk about it a lot, right? I remember going… looking to buy my first house. And I remember my parents at the time who are boomers, right? Being like, oh my gosh, no, don't spend that much money or you should low ball them or you should do this. And then when they started to come to some open houses with me, just randomly, they're asking what for this house? And I'm like, yes, do you see why we're stressed? Because we're in student loan debt, we are buying houses that are incredibly expensive and going well over asking and interest rates at the time were not what they were during the pandemic.

And I'm like, and then you have the cost of childcare. And when I tell people how much I pay for childcare, their mind is blown. They're like, because I always think like it was always hard. It was always expensive. And I was like, not in the way it is now, because it's actually one of the fastest rising costs in our country. It's rising faster than housing prices and groceries, et cetera. And so families really are struggling to make ends meet because the costs just keep going up, but our pay is not going up, right? And inflation continues to rise. And so families in particular, are really struggling to afford childcare if they need it.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (09:33.358)

Yeah, and I think too, like, there's so much of it that people like, well, somebody has a perspective of like, like a boomer has a perspective of like, well, this is it's always been this way, or you should do this or you you know, the avocado toast argument and like all of that stuff. And then you have like your side of it where you're like, No, this is how much things cost.

Paige (09:48.825)

Yes.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (09:59.374)

And then some somehow we marched down the line. And then and then there's always like, the jerk in the stands going, it's your choice. And you're like, wait, what? Like, you don't have all of the data when you're making these choices, because there's no way to have all of the data because all of this stuff has been like Wizard of Odded, Oz, that's not even a word, but you know what I mean. All of this stuff is like behind the curtain.

Paige (10:03.063)

Yes. Mm -hmm. I get it, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (10:26.159)

And then it's like, okay, well, now that you're here, this is it but you made a choice to be here and you're like, I was not informed of all of the data leading to this.

Paige (10:30.649)

No, no. And I don't think we talk about it enough. I know we all know what we went through, but it feels like we've just pretended it didn't happen. But the pandemic had a huge impact on families, right? The cost of childcare has risen so much, not just because of inflation, but also because so many daycares and childcare centers closed during the pandemic and did not reopen, right? And so now there are childcare deserts.

There is a lack of childcare, right? My youngest is two, she just started daycare because she's been on the wait list for almost two years, right? And so parents are dealing with this situation where there is no available childcare. So then you have to pay a premium for the one you can actually get into. And then there's this whole conversation of, is it close by? Is it safe? Is it, do the hours work? There's a million considerations, right? And oftentimes, you know, I say like, yes, there are some things that are choices, but at the same time it's in most homes in our country are dual income homes. Most families are dual income, the majority, and most families cannot afford to live off of one's salary, right? So even if, you know, mom and dad are paying $60 ,000 a year in childcare and they're just like, let's say mom's salary, because that's what people always like to use, it's just mom's salary, she only has 20K left over. That 20K still goes to stuff, right? Like that still pays for things that their family needs. And if you take away the entire salary,

And the childcare, now you're short that $20 ,000 that you were using for your mortgage or health insurance or whatever it might be, right? So there's just so many factors. And oftentimes the burden is placed on mom and her choice to have children, not their choice to have children. And does her salary cover the full cost, right? Like we don't often include dads. Like if mom's doesn't, then she needs to stay at home. But then that doesn't account for her lifetime earnings, her retirement, her healthcare.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (11:55.052)

Mm -hmm.

Paige (12:21.529)

What happens if they get divorced? What happens if something happens to her partner? Like, what are all the things you need to consider when you make that choice? And I, going into it, didn't even think about all those things. I wasn't thinking about my retirement, right? I wasn't, I should have been, but I was 29 when I became a mom and was still really young and I was thinking about it, but not in the way I am now. And so there's just so many things to consider. It's not as black and white as you choose to spend this money or you chose to have kids. It's like, also in our country, not everybody has reproductive rights, so not all of us are choosing, right? Some of us, some people in our country don't get that choice. And so there's just so much to consider, so much to consider.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (12:54.446)

Yes. Mm hmm. And I think too, like the the quality question of childcare, like I feel like that is the next wave of not realization. Because if you are a parent, you understand that like, this is something that you run up against all the time is the regulation of childcare centers, like and the regulation of you know, there's if you are in a childcare desert, and the centers close, or they triple the price and it's no longer a feasible option, then you move into things like informal settings. And you start maybe stacking things in, but informal settings aren't regulated and what are you doing? And it's like, well, it's a deal because my kids can go here and this is what I need to do. And I am forced into this option because again, you're doing the math, right?

Paige (13:33.689)

Right? Yes.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (13:57.262)

And the math doesn't math if you don't go to work and everyone's making the best choice with what is a non -option option for them. And then you get into these situations of, yes, you might be paying, you know, have two or three kids, you might be paying $30 ,000 a year for daycare. But what is the regulation that that daycare is upholding? What are the standards that they are meeting in order to be an option for you that is safe, that is reliable, that is all of those things. Because it seems like when you look in the media and you hear these terrible stories about things that happen and people are like, well, you should have just kept your kids at home because then they would be safer. And it's like, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Paige (14:27.905)

Mm -hmm. Yeah. And it's very specific to our country, right? There are other countries that provide affordable, high quality childcare and ours doesn't, right? And so our country as a whole could be doing more to support families to fund childcare centers. And also I think it's important to acknowledge that the women, because it's almost always women that work in these childcare centers are not paid a livable wage, right? They are not paid well to do the work that they do that is so important to our economy and our society. Without them, women couldn't be in the workforce in the way that they are, and our economy would suffer. It's infrastructure. It's important. It's needed. It's valuable. And we don't place enough value on it. And the cost has been passed off to parents who can no longer sustain it. And that's the problem is there's no supports or funding. And child care centers oftentimes are scraping by. They're not profitable businesses, which is why they close so often.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (15:14.222)

Mm -hmm.

Paige (15:39.353)

And it's funny because people always have this narrative, especially online, like, oh, you're paying that much for a kid. I should open a daycare. And it's like, but you don't understand, right, that one of the biggest costs to them is insurance, right? If they're a well -run, you know, childcare center, they have a huge overhead costs when it comes to making sure everything is where it needs to be. And so it's really important, I think, just to continue to talk about it and the fact that it is also very tied to paid leave, right? Like children are going to childcare centers at six, eight weeks because their parents don't have any leave to take.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (15:54.764)

Yeah.

Paige (16:08.857)

And that's a huge burden to families too. And how do we emulate what other countries are doing? Like, you know, Canada has much better leave options than we have. And then your kids don't, oh, are you? Yeah. But then it's like, and then you can't, then your kids don't have to go to daycare until they're one, one and a half. And like that's so, like think about the financial implications there, right? It's just, I think there's just so much more we could be doing for women and children because it disproportionately impacts women.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (16:20.462)

Yeah, I'm Canadian. Mm -hmm.

Paige (16:38.867)

Men aren't leaving the workforce when their daycare closes. Women are.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (16:43.63)

Right, and that is too, I feel like that was the golden opportunity in the pandemic when everyone was shut down. Everything was locked, there was nobody. And then it's the stories of you don't realize how hard it is to do these things until this thing is, this task is staring at you right in the face and there's nowhere to go. There's no person to hand it to, there's no, there's no activity that that can be scheduled, there's no nothing, it's just this. And I think that I would argue that the people that are doing the majority of the caregiving in this instance in the US when it comes to workforce participation and all of those things, women are like, like, I don't think that there was a huge reckoning that happened for mothers in the pandemic. I think there was this like, Oh, my God, we didn't realize and then you have this group of moms going, no, we already knew. Like we knew that this was a problem. But now we're like a few years away from 2020 and people are like, yeah, remember that, that was crazy. And you're like, but it's still the same.

Paige (17:44.953)

Oh. Yeah. Yeah, and I think the tides really turned during the pandemic in actually a way that was detrimental to women, right? Women left their workforce or took time out of work, four times more than men, I think it was, during the pandemic to care for kids while childcare centers were closed or schools were closed. Women were the ones adjusting how they participated in the workforce. You often hear these stories of like, yeah, both parents are working at home, but dad got the office with the lock and mom's working in the living room with the kids, right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (18:06.83)

Yeah. Oh my God, so many.

Paige (18:23.001)

Yeah, and then like, you know, even the back to office, you know, movement, like men are going to the back to the office in droves and women aren't able to, and that's hurting them in the workforce. They're showing data now that if you're a full -time remote worker, you have less opportunities in your career than people who are in like hybrid or in office positions. And so I think it actually made it worse for a lot of us. I know for me in particular, I went fully remote during that time and I haven't gone back and my partner is a first responder. And so he was outside of the house full time, not one day at home during COVID, right? He was always at work. And so I became the default for everything. And we were new parents at the time, our older two were in foster care and they'd moved in with us just six months before the pandemic started. And so new parents, two toddlers working from home, I was pregnant and everything just became my responsibility because they were home with me for months and I was working. And so then somehow, even when they went back to childcare,

Dr. Ashley Blackington (18:56.684)

Mm -hmm.

Paige (19:20.985)

it all the things were still mine. And I was like, how do I, how do I give this back? I don't want, like, I need to give this back because there was also this weird expectation that now that I work from home, I can just do all these things. I can do the laundry and the dishes and the cleaning and the cooking and all the things because I'm home. And if the kids need to be home, I'm home. And it's like, no, I'm working. Like, yeah, I'm home, but I'm working. And I still need, I remember we would get into fights because I'd be like, you don't understand what a privilege it is. And I know this sounds crazy that you get to drive 30 minutes to work by yourself in a car with no kids, a podcast and some coffee, and you get to do that twice a day. I was like, I don't get four minutes to myself a day. Nothing.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (20:01.102)

I feel like you and I might share a brainwave on that because I can't even tell you how many times. My husband was an essential service provider and so he was not out of work. And it was one of those things where I was building my business. I had a new baby, had a toddler, had two kids doing remote school, which is like, could we just never again? And...

Paige (20:28.343)

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (20:31.214)

I remember being like, what I wouldn't do to drive around the neighborhood with like zero sounds for like 20 minutes, but it's not like that's not happening. And it's that like frayed nerve that just stays frayed. And it's not, again, that is when, that is when they start throwing that grateful crap at you. That's when it's like, you should be so grateful that you get to be home and that your kids are safe and you're doing the right thing. And you're like, I'm a little bit fried and there's no relief in sight. And I just had this conversation with my kids now is that this week saying like, there's a lot of stuff that landed on my lap during COVID that wasn't mine to have, but I took it because it was COVID. And now I'm giving it back to you.

Paige (21:03.705)

Yeah. Mm -hmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (21:25.134)

Like we are handing, I am handing this all back to you because it's not mine. This is like a library book. I borrowed it and you borrowed my time and now you are capable of doing these things. So you need to have them back.

Paige (21:39.481)

Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting because I think, you know, this conversation stretches across so many different things, right? I put up a poll or something that was like, what hobbies do you have as a woman? Right? Because men can list their hobbies like easy. You're like, what are your hobbies? And I go, I love to work on cars and I golf and I like to hunt and I, you know, I go hiking and you're like, oh, wow. With what time? How do you do all this? And women, I put this on the number one response is reading. And the second response that I got a lot was sitting in silence.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (21:45.782)

Yeah. Mm-hmm

Paige (22:08.633)

I'm like, see, these aren't hobbies, right? These aren't hobbies. Reading is not a privilege. We shouldn't have to be making it a hobby, right? Everybody's reading. We should all be reading. We tell our kids, read every single day, right? Like that should be like just a right, I think. Like reading should just be something you have time to do and space to do. But as women, we have such little time and space in our days that reading has become our hobby and silence is a hobby. Like that is...

If that doesn't show you the disparities between how we spend our time, then I don't know what does, right? Because when you ask a man, typically he can say to you, yeah, like I do X, Y, I love to cycle. Oh, cool, cool. How long do you go cycling? Like I would love to be able to walk four feet without a kid on my hip. I don't know. I think it's just, and like some of this is on, it's not on women, right? But like some of this, like I've taken my time back for sure in my home, in my marriage, I've taken my time back but I still have this guilt around it because I've been told that I should view motherhood as my top calling. I should feel blessed. I should feel grateful. One woman even said like, don't view these things as burdens. You need to view them as blessings. And I'm like, no, they can be both, right? Feeding my children is a blessing. Cooking dinner sucks. I hate cooking. Like I don't need to call that a blessing. I can call it what it is. It's a burden, but I'm happy I have food to feed my children. Both of those things can be true.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (23:23.814)

Yeah, exactly. At the same time. I think I could be borrowing this from you, but I saw this the other day about it was a hobby question as well. And they were asking partners what the other partner's hobby was. And it was like men were saying like, my wife, like it's really fulfilling for her to like do the cooking and cleaning so much so that she does that in her downtime.

Paige (23:47.417)

Oh wow.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (24:03.278)

And it's like, that is an attribution that is, it does not match. You do not, yeah.

Paige (24:10.233)

Yeah, yeah, I did do a video on this because I think oftentimes women, they'll say, oh, my mom loves to cook. She's always in the kitchen. And it's like, does she love to cook or has she been required to cook? So therefore she has chosen to try to enjoy it because she's been burdened with it. They'll say things like, my wife finds energy from organizing. Does she or is it important to her to have an organized home so she can function better? Right? Like does she get energy from it or is it just something that she does because it makes her life run smoother?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (24:24.076)

Mm -hmm.

Paige (24:39.543)

For some people, sure, I think it's fair to say that some women actually do enjoy cooking, but just because somebody does something often doesn't mean they enjoy it, right? It's the question of like, you know, you can't say that I like to clean just because I'm always cleaning. I clean because if I don't clean then the house is a mess and it's disgusting and we have four kids and a dog. Like I'm cleaning constantly and I enjoy a clean home. I don't like cleaning, right? It's not something I want to be doing. If you gave me an hour of my time and the house is already spick and span, I would do something different. I wouldn't find something to clean. I would do something different. So, yeah, it's just this thing where it's like what we see people doing, we associate with enjoyment. When in reality, like women probably aren't enjoying these things, they've just been responsible for them. So they're doing them and they're doing them all the time because you're never not cooking when you have kids. You're never not cleaning when you have kids. You have to be doing those things all the time.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (25:14.838)

Right. Okay. Yeah, and you have to be in that that idea that like, if you can't if you can't sort of like if you can't answer the question, what do you do for a hobby? I think that's when we start to say like, Okay, well, I don't know what I would like to do. But the things that I do this list of things that I do the things that that irritate me the least, right? It's like, you know, I like I don't mind cooking or I like baking or whatever. And then all of a sudden, it's like, see, look at this, this is fulfilling your need because there's like warm banana bread or there's like cookies and stuff like that. Like look at you, you're doing a really good job at being a mom because these tasks that you take on that make it easier for everybody else, we're just gonna call those your hobbies.

Paige (26:08.919)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, and also sometimes we call them hobbies for ourselves because we have nothing else, right? So it's like, I'm gonna try to find enjoyment in something that I'm doing. And I think it's just, yeah, it's just a slippery slope, right? It's a slippery slope. It can be very difficult to kind of find space for yourself and purpose outside of motherhood and being a partner, having a job, right? There's just so many demands on women and our time. And our time is just not often seen as valuable to some people, right? Our time is something that they can just take. And we need to be really good about having boundaries, which can be really hard. I have a hard time with that myself. And I've started putting it on my calendar, right? Like everybody knows mom is, my daughter the other day, this is the thing, this is how you know.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (27:03.726)

Mm -hmm.

Paige (27:15.673)

I leave the house two nights a week, Mondays and Wednesdays, and I try to go to yoga or run errands for the family. Like this isn't always like for me, but it's, you know, I leave at dinner time, so I don't do the whole bedtime routine. My husband's got it and I just go. And that for me alone is like, oh my God, thank God. Like, cause I do mornings by myself. I'm like, I'm just tapping out. I'm done. And my daughter the other day was like, you're always leaving. You're always leaving.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (27:42.286)

You..

Paige (27:44.505)

I was like, daddy is not here for one morning, not one morning a week, right? And my husband works a lot of like overnights and OT and so like he won't be there for a handful of the evenings too. And I'm like, you never say that to dad. And she's like, well, you know, you're leaving. And I'm like, right, but mom's always here. Like during the morning, I'm always here when you get off the bus. I'm always here on weekends. I'm all like, mommy is allowed to have, right? This is also important. Like they need to know, like I'm allowed to leave this house.

I'm allowed to leave and have a life outside of you guys and I love you very much but this narrative that daddy's allowed to come and go as he pleases but mom is always here and she has to like validate why she's leaving, that's not healthy either. Like they need to know that I am allowed to be a human being and have things outside of the home and I don't need to justify that. I'm just allowed to have that because I'm an adult and a person and that's also something I'm trying to talk to them about which is like, hey, like no, we're not gonna say that to mommy.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (28:29.422)

Mm -hmm.

Paige (28:43.161)

Like mommy's allowed to go do stuff. Just because I'm always here doesn't mean I'm not allowed to leave. Right? And so that's the hard part too. It's like whatever we're doing in our lives, our kids are seeing and they're learning from it. Right? And so it's really important to me that they see me leaving and they see me doing things and they know that, yeah, mom's got stuff that she does outside of this house that is just as valuable as what I do inside the house.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (28:48.494)

No, right? Yeah, and I think too, on the opposite side of that is also to have opportunity where you are not the person who is in charge. And that notion of like, you know, the hobby of mom loves to do all of the things that are involved in childcare cuts off the opportunity for dad to be the one who is also responsible for those things. And so when you are not physically there, you cannot be responsible for those things. And that gives both people that gives your kids and that also gives your partner the opportunity to be like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm going to figure this out.

Paige (29:45.623)

Totally.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (30:05.902)

Like I when I when I my oldest was was born, I went back to work on the weekend. So I did per diem work and my husband worked during the week. And so we did the the two ships thing for a long time. And when I went back into work, my husband was home with a, I don't know, 12, 14 week old. And people were like, are you, do you need to call home? Like, is it going to be okay? Blah, blah, blah. And I was like, why has everybody here set this up? Like I worked, I was an OT working inpatient and I was in a field that was mostly dominated by women. And it was just this idea of like, you have to call and check in. And I was like, I'm not going to do that. Like I'm, I'm unavailable. And I would go home like so refreshed and like things aren't done the way that I would do them.

Paige (30:27.543)

No. Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (30:35.246)

but the kid's still alive and the kid is dressed and then, you know, it's that opportunity for them to learn as well.

Paige (30:39.127)

Yeah. It's like building bricks, right? It's like you're like, okay, we're going to lay the foundation. I need him to know how to care for the kids in the same way that I care for the kids. And then there's the second layer. It's like, okay, now you know how to care for the kids. You also need to do domestic labor while you're taking care of the kids because that's what I do, right? You come home to a clean house and food and laundry put away. I deserve the same, you know, when I come home. And so I think like it's, I feel like, um, I talk a lot about doing this work before you have children. Like I can't stress it enough. Like have these conversations, talk about it. I said in a post yesterday about how I think it's really important to talk about sick time when you start to have kids because your kids are going to be constantly sick. And I've become the default for sick time because I work from home and I'm like, no. So we've stopped. Like my daughter was sick last week. My husband took the day off because I'm like, I can't just be the default because I'm here. I'm like, that's not fair. We need to level set. Right. And so there's those kinds of conversations you can be having from the get go, which is like, I will not be the default parent.

I will not do this alone. I think it even starts as soon as them being newborns, right? There's this narrative that dad needs to sleep because he's going back to work and mom doesn't. And I'm like, she's taking care of the baby all day. But then what happens is when mom does go back to work, eight weeks, 16 weeks, whatever she gets, now when the baby wakes up overnight, dad still gets mom because she's better at it. And it's like she's better at it because she's been doing it for three months and you haven't been doing it for three months. And that's not fair either, right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (31:48.142)

Mm -hmm.

Paige (32:08.537)

So now she's expected to do overnights and go to work, but you were never expected to do that, right? So I think it's really important for women in particular to be aware of how quickly this mental load and responsibility falls to women very early on and even in trying to conceive in pregnancy, right? Like oftentimes the burden falls on the woman to track her ovulation and to know when she's most fertile and to initiate, right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (32:12.172)

Mm -hmm.

Paige (32:36.857)

Like the trying to have a child with their partner and think it starts so early, right? The burden falls to moms really early and it piles on very quickly and you don't even see it happening. You don't even realize until you're in the thick of it. So I think at least if your eyes are open going into it, you have a much better chance to have an equitable division of labor, a partner who's actively participating as a parent, regardless of whether or not they're working or not working, right? Like I think it's possible. You just have to know about it. You have to be aware of it so that way when you notice it happening, you can kind of pump the brakes and say, whoa, whoa, somehow I've become responsible for bottles and I'm the only one doing it. How did this happen? Right. And you, at least if you can be thinking about it, hopefully you can kind of prepare accordingly.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (33:09.934)

Yeah, my oldest, I pumped as well. And this was terrible. A whole series of terrible advice or whatever. Anyways, I ended up she nursed and I pumped like a fiend.

Paige (33:25.303)

Mmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (33:48.822)

And I remember like I was standing in the kitchen and looking out the window and I'm washing like the 97 ,000 piece of pump parts. And it was just this like you're doing that mental math all day long of like, all right, so she ate here, I pumped here, this milk went in the fridge here and this and that and like all of that. And I remember standing there at like four o 'clock and my husband had come home from work and I just said, I will not wash one more pump heart ever. Like I will buy formula at this point, like I am so.

I can't even look at these pieces. I can't even deal with this stuff. Like, you know, it was back when they had like the it was not fancy. They were the ones that had the little like valve that you'd lose one down the sink and then you'd have to go to Target. And it's just like just tears, right? Like the thing goes down the sink and you're just like, I cry now because I have to pack the baby up and I have to do this and I have to do this. And it's not hard, but it's impossible. And and from that, like from that day on, though, I never watched another pump part. But like, why did I have to get to that point?

Paige (34:26.713)

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (34:44.27)

And it's not like I'm not in a relationship with someone who's like, you know, the women do this and all of that stuff. It's just I took all that on until until I was like, I would light this pump on fire so that I never have to watch another one of these pieces.

Paige (34:59.449)

Yeah, yeah, I remember buying dishwashing gloves because my hands were so raw from washing pump parts. They were so cracked and dry and I was like, I can't put my hands in water. I can't do it. And my husband, yeah, did start doing that. And I think the thing is too, right, like I don't think a lot of this is like individual failures, right? It's so societal. Our whole society tells women that our ultimate job is to be moms and that it's ultimately our responsibility to make sure kids are thriving and happy and all the things.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (35:03.916)

Ugh.

Paige (35:29.433)

And they're telling dads, your job is to earn money and protect your family. And it's like, well, I have a ring security system. I don't really need you to protect me. I just need you to participate in the home. And providing for your family is not just about finances anymore. It's emotional and physical. You need to be present. And I think my husband was always a really active dad and present dad. And so he'd always be surprised by how I felt so overburdened. And I'm like, but you're not responsible for anything. I have to delegate everything to you. I have to tell you, I have to remind you, I have to ask you. You don't see these things as your responsibility as a parent. And I do. And that's the problem, right? Dads haven't been told that it's ultimately their responsibility to make sure their baby's eating, right? The question is always like, mom, are you breastfeeding? Are you pumping? Are you going to switch to formula? And it's like, well, this should be a collaborative conversation, whether or not he's the one doing it, if I choose to continue to nurse, then I need him to do X, Y, and Z, because I'm gonna be sitting in a chair for X amount of hours a day pumping or nursing or whatever it is. And so I think that, I think we need to approach it more like that, just in general, which is like, okay, so mom's choosing to nurse, dad, how are you supporting? And that's not really a part of it. It's just like, okay, mom's choosing to nurse. The end. It's like.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (36:32.46)

Mm -hmm. Yeah, right. Dot the end. Yeah, I like the, you know, and I think too, like maybe there's a way to frame it or not maybe, but I really feel like the way to frame it is such that like, when you and this to like circle in the childcare piece is like, when you bring your kids to daycare, childcare, whatever it is, you want your kids to be taken care of, right? So like, you're not going to say to the childcare person, like you're not going to just sort of like dump all of your stuff onto them and walk out the door, you're going to say, thank you so much. This is really great. I really appreciate all of these parts and pieces and like, it really helps this function. Why is that not happening? Is that happening at home? And would that make a difference? Because if you have somebody who is the default, they are home and all of those things, the work that they are doing in that regard is invisible.

Paige (37:48.001)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (37:48.046)

And why is it invisible when it is this person and this partner that you have versus when you pay for it? Like, why does it not have value until there's a dollar attached to it? And if you are wanting to have care that is helpful and healthy in all of those pieces, you have to take care of the caregiver.

Paige (37:54.137)

Yeah.

Paige (38:08.633)

Yeah, for sure. And I think it's just also like, I remember having this conversation with my husband about my daughter's schedule. And we, I was talking about daycare because I said to him, I said, when do you think we should shift her nap? He's like, I don't know. You know, you tell me or something. And I was like, well, no, why should I have to tell you? Right. And I was like, he's like, well, you're with her all day. And I was like, okay, let's, let's talk about this because I'm with her all day. Sure. Our toddler goes to daycare every single day.

Do they tell me how to raise my daughter or do I tell them her schedule and what she can eat and what she can't? Like I'm telling them, even though I'm not the one physically with her during the day, I'm like, you see how that works? They're not responsible for it because they are not her parent. Therefore, just because I'm physically here does not mean I'm the only person responsible for this. We are both parents to this child. If she were home with a nanny all day, we wouldn't ask the nanny what the nap schedule should be.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (38:47.438)

Mm -hmm.

Paige (39:05.913)

We would be talking to the nanny about what we think it should be. And so don't place that burden solely on me because I'm physically here. And I think it's oftentimes, dude, just like social media, right? All of the accounts that get targeted to moms are parenting accounts and motherhood accounts and all these things. Dads are not often following dad accounts. Like if you look at the dad accounts, they're almost always followed by women. Women are following the dad accounts and then sending it to their partners. Men are following accounts of their favorite golfer or whatever, business accounts or whatever it might be, other questionable accounts depending on who the man is, right? But I think like they're not, like my husband watches woodworking videos all day long. And I'm like, dude, maybe watch one about nap schedules, like once in a while, throw it in there, right? Because that's what I'm getting on my feed, right? And that's not even just my, again, not a fault of my husband's like, he's not getting that on his feed. His algorithm is not serving him baby.

it's serving him woodworking, right? And so like, I don't know, like I have other things I like outside of being a parent, right? And I see some of those things, but a lot of what's served to me in the media, in TV, on social media is telling me how to be a good mom, how to raise my kids, what's important for my children. And so I think that's why I say it's not really even just an individual failure, right? Like they don't even...

Dr. Ashley Blackington (40:08.846)

Mm -hmm.

Paige (40:25.625)

They're not seeing this information in their feed. They're not seeing other people being like, oh, have you heard of gentle parenting? Like, I don't think that's coming across them. They have to actively seek it out where it's just being force -fed to women. And so then we feel this real strong ownership over it. And then we spend a lot of time thinking about it and researching it because this pressure is coming from the outside for us to feel like we have to do all of these things.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (40:48.814)

And and to like our relationship with social media, like how many people use social media as an escape, but it's not ever an escape. You're just you're like you're being waterboarded and all you're trying to do is look for the sun. Like you want I mean, if a woodworking video showed up in my feed, I'd watch it because it would be different, right? Like, well, my phone is listening to me, right?

Paige (40:54.625)

Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And they look soothing, right? Like they look soothing. I don't know. But that's like the whole like, the phenomenon on TikTok of like the rug washing videos where everybody's like, are you watching these rug washing videos? And it's like, yeah, I don't know. It's like, it's wild. Like, what was the point? Just throw that rug out. Like, but like I'm watching it because it's just, yeah, it's like this is escape, right? It's, it's something that I don't have to think about or feel like is telling me who to be or how to be or what to be. And I think, that is just not a luxury many women have right now, right? And you're not seeing discourse online between like, is it better to be a stay at home mom or working mom? Dads aren't getting that, right? They're not getting that like, way to go dad, you have a job and you take care of your baby. They're not seeing the same content that we're seeing. And so that can be really, really hard as a new parent, I think too, like as a new parent. I think once you're a couple of years into it, you have a little more space to push back. You're like, no, no, no, this is BS. Like I've lived it. I know I'm, yeah, I'm getting out. Like I don't want to be doing this anymore, but I feel like I've heard from so many women and I don't know what you hear, but like it's like when I had the words to articulate it, when I knew others were going through it and I wasn't alone in it, I felt the freedom to stop doing it.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (42:05.838)

I saw behind the movie set.

Paige (42:34.009)

But when you're isolated and alone and people aren't talking about it in your real life, it can feel very abnormal to feel like you aren't enjoying all aspects of motherhood or maybe you want to go back to work. And if you don't have that in your immediate community or you're not hearing about it, it can feel really hard to say it. And so, yeah, I say it a lot, obviously, and I say it online, but not without pushback, right? Like my comment sections are brutal some days and I don't look at it because I can't. Like mentally, some days I'm like, I just can't.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (42:52.59)

Mm -hmm.

Paige (43:02.361)

Some days I can look and laugh and be like, oh my God like, yeah, we have so far to go. Other days I can't look, right? Because I'm just like, I'm mentally tapped out. I can't hear about it or see it. But I get enough DMs and messages saying like, hey, I know you get a lot of hate, but please, like, this helped me so much. Like, you're doing, you're saying the things that people are afraid to say because of the negativity, right? People are afraid to say this, but it helped me a lot. And now me and my partner are in a better place and thank you. And so, you know, I think if I can bear the brunt of it, I'm happy to do it because I also have a loving partner and I've been through it, right? So like, I know what it feels like to be on the other side and how valuable it is to have equity and how much more free I feel as a human being. I just want everyone to have that. So I can't, like, I can't even stop talking about it anyways, obviously. I keep rattling on, but I can't stop myself. So I'm just gonna do it.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (43:46.732)

But it's also, it's not like you're in your living room doing it. You're creating a space for people to also show up and say, yep, over here on the left. But I mean, so this podcast is relatively new. It started in, I think, October. And when I started leading up to it, it was conversations with people where I was like, what do you think about this? What do you do outside of motherhood?

Paige (44:01.017)

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (44:19.63)

that is just for you and like, what do you, and whether or not you have the time to do that now, like what would you like to do? What does that, how does that fit into your life? And there are people that I have known for years, 11 years, like we met when our kids were like little squishy glow worms and they're like, I have no idea. Like I couldn't even answer that question.

Paige (44:21.817)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (44:49.486)

And that's when I was like, interesting, because if these are people that I see face to face every day, who are having this experience, there are more people out there who are having this experience. And if we aren't talking about this on a face -to -face level, there needs to be a space for people to hear about these things in order to say, oh, wait a minute, like cooking is not the thing that fills my bucket. Going to, I don't know, going to do some activity with my friends or going to do this or whatever it is, is the thing that fills my bucket. And I sort of, forgot about that or didn't think I was allowed to feel that or didn't think I was allowed to like do that right now based on whoever is making these allowances or not making these allowances. Wait a second.

Paige (45:32.057)

Yeah, yeah, it's hard. It's hard. And until you ask the questions, it can be hard to know that you're not doing it, right? Or that you're not prioritizing yourself. I'm even sitting here thinking, it's almost 11 a .m. and forgot to eat breakfast. And I'm like, oh, I realized I was getting hungry. I like, oh, it's not lunchtime yet. And I'm like, oh, I didn't eat breakfast. And I didn't eat breakfast because my toddler was refusing to get dressed and we were gonna miss the bus. And by the time I got home, I had a work call, right? And so it's like...

Dr. Ashley Blackington (45:32.43)

It's yeah, and it's just.

Paige (46:00.825)

Your days can look like that sometimes. And so then when you take a step back, you're like, did I even feed myself today? Like, did I do any of the things that you just need to sustain life, let alone things that bring you joy? Not every day's a win, right? But I think the more you can be aware of the fact that you are allowed to and should prioritize yourself outside of motherhood, the more that you will. Or at least you'll like recognize when you're not, right? Like I'm recognizing I didn't today. And I know that wasn't like, that wasn't a good idea.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (46:16.974)

Mm -hmm.

Paige (46:29.897)

And I'm going to have a headache right from it later. But then I'm going to make a priority tomorrow, right, to try and eat before the kids wake up or whatever. Yeah, it's just – it's a lot to manage. It's hard. And so you have to have grace with yourself too. Not every day is a win.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (46:44.238)

Yeah. And also realizing that like the head down part of it is not going to last forever. And, you know, I think too, like I have talked to like different people on here and things like that, where it's like the, the, what your capacity is when you have a six month old baby is vastly different than your capacity when you have a 10 year old.

Paige (46:49.623)

Mm -hmm. Totally.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (47:12.974)

And when you are being fed that social media, situation. It's really easy to lose your own perspective in that because it feels like the crowd is so overwhelming, where you're like, I should be doing that based on this that I saw. However, my kid eats every two hours versus like this 10 year old makes their own lunch.

Paige (47:29.495)

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. It's what season of life are you in? Right. And it can last a long time if you have multiple kids. And that's the thing too. It's like, Oh, just wait till they're five. It's like, okay, I have a five year old, but I also have a one year old now. Right. So it's like, yeah, it's like, now you're parenting all different kinds of kids and it can feel like, Oh, this kid needs this thing. And this kid needs this thing. And then now you actually feel even more stretched, right? But like now I'm sleeping. So like, that's an improvement. And so it's just, you know, it's, there's always a lot.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (47:42.958)

But then there's a whole train.

Paige (48:01.509)

And I think the more that you have, supports and at least just the more you're able to see outside of your four walls and recognize like why this is happening or how this happens or what supports are available to you. It's easier to navigate, but especially when you're a new parent with your first child, it can feel really isolating. And it feels nerve wracking to say things that maybe aren't always like sunshine, right, about being a new parent. And I think we just need to be more comfortable saying those things.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (48:22.7)

Yeah, yeah, the more the more you see it and the more you hear about it. So I think that I think that what you're doing is incredible. And I'm not sure I'm not sure when I found your account. But I remember being like, you know what? This lady has hit the nail on the head because a she has four kids. I also have four.

Paige (48:33.241)

Thank you. Hehehehe

Dr. Ashley Blackington (48:51.534)

And I was like, there's something about when you get to that, like larger family size where you're like. Okay, if I had one kid, you could you might have convinced me if I had to sort of on the fence, but like once you get into the larger numbers, you're like, oh, this is a sham. That's right. I see. I see through it all. And now I'm going to tell everybody like.

Paige (49:00.601)

Yeah, yeah. And even the people with one kid deserve to hear it, right? Because they oftentimes people with one kid will be like, oh, I can't complain. I only have one. I went to a speaker series and this woman was like, I shouldn't be talking. I only have two kids. She has four. And I was like, no, it's all valid. Like we're all in it. Like it doesn't matter how many kids. Yeah, exactly. It's all relative. And sometimes when you have fewer kids, you feel more pressure, right? Cause you're like, oh, when I have four kids, people have some grace, right? Cause I'm like, oh, she's got four kids. It's crazy. When you have one, they're like, well, what's your excuse?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (49:08.973)

Exactly.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (49:19.406)

Yeah, it's all relative.

Paige (49:33.209)

How come you're not teaching them to read yet or whatever it is, right? It's all relative, it's all hard, it's all valid.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (49:40.59)

Yeah, and that's that's important to you're not leaving anybody out because there's no like there's no VIP parking here just because number.

Paige (49:47.001)

Unfortunately. Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (49:50.766)

I love it. Well, thank you so much for joining me. And I would love for you to let everybody know where they can find you and follow and all of that.

Paige (49:59.833)

Sure, yeah, so I am @sheisapaigeturner on all social media, TikTok, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, but I'm mostly on TikTok and Instagram, so the others are just extra. Yeah, so you can follow me along there. I tend to post quite often, so yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (50:16.75)

I love it. I love what you're doing. And like high five from over here.

Paige (50:18.391)

Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me. This was fun.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (50:24.75)

Awesome, thanks.