Full Episode Transcript

Dr. Ashley Blackington (00:00.982)

Hello and welcome back to the Anne Boath podcast. I am here today with Erin Spahr. She is from, she is, not from, she is the Feminist Mom Therapist and she also has a podcast called the Feminist Mom Podcast. So I am so excited to have you here today. Welcome.

Erin Spahr (00:08.863)

Thank you so much for inviting me. This is great.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (00:22.162)

Yeah, I'm really excited. You I will full disclosure. I love to disclose things or just like put it all out in the open that having you on this show has been like you're at that. You've been at the top of my list for a long time.

Erin Spahr (00:39.702)

Oh my God. Wow. Thank you so much. It's so weird. Just like how we're all just, you know, to have it. Oh, there's my dog. So dog is gonna be in the podcast. Well, I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (00:44.995)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (00:50.126)

Mine will be back in a minute.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (00:55.294)

Yeah. And so one of the things is that, one of the things that really sort of drew me to this whole, the whole idea of podcasting and the idea of like, we were just talking about this before I hit record is like, you know, it's not like we have nothing going on. We just sort of like decide that we need to layer a podcast into our life. And I will say like, I definitely have people who are like, why are you doing this now? And I'm like, well, because it is important conversations that need to happen. And I think that's what happens so often is that we get in this like head down mentality of just sort of like trying to run in our own course, but it's through hearing the stories and sharing and things like that where we actually feel less alone in a time when we are very alone.

Erin Spahr (01:47.595)

Absolutely. Yeah. I think the podcast thing, it's actually more work than people realize. And of course, there's so many podcasts out there. So it can be hard to get folks to hear the conversations and that there's so much that could go behind it. But it totally fills you up, right? To have these conversations. And it feels so important for us to connect around the things that we're all going through individually. So it's a labor of love, right? But it's worth it.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (02:12.554)

Yeah, for sure. And so how, when did your start and how did you decide to like kick that off?

Erin Spahr (02:20.755)

Yeah, when did it start? Last year sometime, it's probably, when did it start? I don't even know. Like I should, I have to like look back. I got really excited and asked like a whole bunch of people and have been just recording tons and tons of podcasts. And I'm so behind on like, so people will record with me and it takes like months to get their podcast out. So I'm just like, I just finally stopped and I'm just trying to like get them all out before I invite anyone else on. But it's probably been under a year. And it's, yeah, I just felt like a continuation of the conversations that I was having as a therapist and kind of wanting to go deeper, the conversations I was having on my social media, which is, you know, limited in the way that we can like talk about nuance. And I also felt like I was having all these connections through the social media work I was doing. I was like, I want someone else to hear this person who connect with here, I want to make that these conversations more accessible. Because it's like when you're in a certain world or framework, sometimes you forget that so many people don't have access to a certain perspective or lens. And so I wanted to like make those conversations available.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (03:38.454)

Yeah, I think that's so important, too, because I think it's like, how many times are you standing there like you're at dinner and you're talking to someone and you have this like really like deep conversation, connection about these things and like, you know that you're not the only one feeling it and they're not the only one. And especially around something so nuanced as motherhood and what it is to be a woman in 2024.

Erin Spahr (03:58.844)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (04:07.39)

That it's like why do we get more of this out there? And how do we have more of that happen in a way that other people can hear it? Yeah, I love I love it. So you how long have you been working as a therapist for?

Erin Spahr (04:16.926)

Yeah. Um, probably over a decade, I started out in more of like, um, community mental health, working at a, like sort of in, in an inner city in Baltimore, um, working with like really, you know, traumatized folks, folks who didn't have, um, a lot of access to resources. And I'm pretty early into that. I became a mom and I had this sort of trauma lens, I had this intersectional lens, I was like, intersectional lens, I don't think I would call it that then, but kind of like a sociology background in college, I had really been more interested in the sociology classes and the psychology classes. And so when I became a mom, I was like, Whoa, this is wild. And what about people who have, who don't have resources like I do? How the heck are… How are we doing this? Right? It's sort of like, you like, join this club that you like didn't realize was there and seeing how hard it can be. So then I kind of just from pretty early on decided that the perinatal focus was gonna be something that I feel passionate about. I still do. So I'm happy that this is the place where I do a lot of work.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (05:37.58)

Yeah. I love it. I agree, too. Like, I think that so often I liken it to like, you know, it's like Space Mountain or like one of those rides that you've never been on before, where you're like you get in line and you're like, I'm so excited to do this. And then you get in there and you're like, this is not like anything I expected. Wait a minute. But like everyone who's already ridden the ride is like, yeah, no, we didn't either. Like, thanks for thanks for the heads up, guys.

Erin Spahr (06:02.461)

Yeah, right. And there's definitely a difference in how we perceive motherhood from afar. And then what it's like when it's inside. I think we're still trying to navigate how we help bridge that gap. You know, some people now are becoming more open, you know, definitely in the pandemic, definitely with social media, or show or like sort of showing more authentic, you know thoughts and feelings and experiences of motherhood. And I'm seeing like almost like this backlash that people are like, no, you're making motherhood look so bad and everyone's just complaining. And yes, there are joys and yes, there's good reasons to do it. And so I think it's hard to even in our attempts to try to kind of be honest, it's hard to know how that gets delivered. And like, I don't know, can you know before you know? I'm not sure. Like, I think it's good to be informed.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (06:49.058)

Mm-hmm.

Erin Spahr (06:59.999)

That's a worthy cause to kind of think about how we can help folks feel less surprised. But I don't know if we're doing that well. Do you have thoughts on that?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (07:04.855)

Yeah. I feel like what happens is that because for so long, it was only the forward-facing, it was only the highlights and all of that, that now once we open up the conversation to also include the darker parts, like the isolation and all of these decisions that we may or may not get to make, and access to care in all facets, physical care, mental health, financial issues, all of that stuff that comes along with it. We're in a space where more people are pulling the negative pieces out, that's what's happening is people are like, well, if you don't like that, why didn't, you know, if you didn't want that, why didn't you have kids? And it's like all of those, like, get back in your lane, kind of like phrasing that happens, where it just cuts off this opportunity for people who are having that experience and freshly in that experience to say, oh wait, no, I need help. And this is not what I wanted.

Erin Spahr (07:45.962)

Yeah. Right.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (08:10.038)

But it's also like, it's important for people, you know, if your kids are older then, and as my kids have gotten older, it's like, we need to tell people and we need to be okay with the good and the bad and not just tell people like, babies smell amazing and like, you know the joy of your children saying I love you or you know, whatever, all of those pieces. Like you also have to be like, sometimes your kid poops at a really inopportune time and you have one wipe left. Like it's gonna happen.

Erin Spahr (08:28.362)

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Where you forgot the whole diaper bag because you, like I did the very first trip to the pediatrician with my kid, I was like, oh, diaper bag, yes. Like didn't even think about it, you know? Like just like how, yes, but you're right. It's like there's so much both and as you say here, right? Like there's so much messiness and gray and just really intense feelings, good and bad, right? And everything in between.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (08:48.366)

Mm-hmm.

Erin Spahr (09:06.599)

And we don't prepare people in our society to really like feel emotions in like the way that you experience emotions, I think, in raising a family.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (09:18.238)

Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think you have you have people that like intensity and emotion is great when it's good. Intensity and emotion when it's bad is, is wrong and not okay, right? It's like we're all people and we all have to experience the good, the bad, the ugly, the in between. And so that's why that's one of the reasons why I was like, when I first started to follow you, I was like, I love that you talk about this as the person perspective versus like motherhood is the element of it, but it's like you've focused so much on the mom as a person and an individual within a system and within a framework and greater societal structure that like someone feels really seen in that way. I love that.

Erin Spahr (10:06.091)

So, good, thank you. I don't always know what people take away, or sort of how, like what's helpful. So that's helpful to know that that's coming through. Yeah, I don't, we are just people, right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (10:19.234)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Erin Spahr (10:33.863)

We are just people in a system. And there's a lot that has been like hoisted onto us and like that we've internalized, but, I mean, I think just as a therapist, we sit with like humans who are suffering and feeling intense emotions. And I just, I think as a culture, I just think we need such a better job at teaching people how to do that, how to sit with feelings. And I just think that's such a universal part of motherhood that I think is challenging for so many of us, myself included.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (10:55.49)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think, so how old are your kids?

Erin Spahr (11:00.427)

So my oldest is 11 and then my youngest will be six soon. Yeah, so we had a nice little, took a little break in between because the first one really, you know, it wasn't quite the adjustment for me. So I needed a little time in between.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (11:02.092)

Okay.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (11:19.134)

Yeah. And then to like, given the population and where you were working at the time, like, talk about probably a head spinning situation to be in being in like a serious community mental health setting and having your own having your own new baby. Like that's a that's a big range of emotions that you're experiencing and that you're that you're experiencing on the outside as well.

Erin Spahr (11:48.731)

Yeah, right. I mean, I'm definitely in a better place now at being in prior practice, having control of your schedule in your life and all that is a lot easier than yeah, I mean, I had to put both my babies at 12 weeks into full time daycare and was doing the running around, dropping them off, doing the, you know, and so yeah, I don't, I don't like, I think we can romanticize like the baby phase, but I think it just gets better and better. It’s not like I'd want to go back. Like I love to like, you know, hold them for a little bit, smell them like you said, or give me, you know, but they still have so much cuteness and like also just, it just gets better. So yeah, I think the baby phase, especially in like the way that I felt like I was just like running around exhausted all the time. Like I don't, I don't miss that.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (12:40.842)

Yeah, that like hung out to dry kind of feeling. Because it's so abrupt, it's so like, like I remember being in the hospital and the nurse was coming in and like talking to me and, you know, hi to my husband and stuff. And it was just like, all of this stuff is coming at you, but there's no, you know, it's like your six week checkup and like hear, you know, watch this DVD about baby blues and like, that's it. And I remember going home and we had, thankfully, the hospital where I delivered had a home visit. It was like two days later or three days later, they come to the house and they like, weighed the baby and all this stuff. And like, I hadn't slept since we left the hospital because my daughter, like, hadn't eaten. There was no milk. Like, it's just the whole thing, right? I mean, she ate, but whatever.

Erin Spahr (13:15.736)

Oh. Ugh, yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (13:32.642)

I felt like I had already failed at this. And I remember the nurse coming in and being like, it's okay. And I was like, no idea. And I had been around babies and I had been around a lot of this stuff and it was, when it happens to you, it's a totally different thing. And so much of that, when I think back on that, is about the pressure that I put on myself to be good at something. I had no idea what the heck I was doing.

Erin Spahr (14:01.143)

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's definitely something I experience as well. And I see in a lot of, you know, educated, like, you know, high achieving perfectionistic women who, you know, I think our generation, like, I think we were really encouraged to be, you know, to externally driven, you know, go for the A, go for the, you know, get the award focus on, you know, am I good? Having other people tell us that we were good and bad. I think the parenting style back then, for you know, which was just like how people thought about things was much more behavioral, right? I'm gonna give you incentives and praise or punishment. Right, and so I think a lot of us like look outwardly to sort of be like, am I good enough? And have really high expectations, especially if you like go from school and work and you know, sports or whatever people are interested in, like there's this achievement focus. And then all of a sudden you just have this like little person, which is the most like intense experience. And it's like, I'm not prepared. How do I feel good at this? How do I feel like, and we're, and it's so scary to not feel that. And I definitely had very high expectations of myself. I probably still do. I think also being a therapist added another level for me that

Dr. Ashley Blackington (15:13.612)

Mm-hmm.

Erin Spahr (15:28.731)

I don't know if you experienced, but just sort of like, because I understood develop, like development more, I sat with people whose parents really impacted them. Initially, that was so scary. It was like, I'm going to get this right. Like I'm going to prevent all of the things that could happen.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (15:32.535)

Mm-hmm. Right. Ha ha.

Erin Spahr (15:55.863)

I'm going to have this really secure attachment and, you know, and of course, since then, I've totally embraced this idea of like, repair is one of our best tools because we're human and it's a relationship. It's not like we're shaping this little person. It's that we're having a relationship with them and we're going to mess up. And so like how powerful is it to actually have a healthy repair? And when I say it, it's not just say sorry, but like acknowledge, you know, this is what happened. This is what, you know, take responsibility, talk through it and then teaching them how to do that. Like siblings, that's a huge thing I've been focusing on more now is having, you know, my two, the two brothers be able to like work out stuff and like kind of support them in doing that. But yeah, I just, um, I feel like I inevitably, I know that inevitably there are going to be things that I didn't get right. And I prepare for that. I prepare for the day when they say, Hey mom, like, and actually it happens now. Like I didn't, my oldest is like, I didn't like when you said that, that was embarrassing to me in front of people or something. And I, you know, there's a defensive reaction that people often have, like, because we don't want to see ourselves as bad parents. And so I try to like catch it and say, oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, you're right. I should have done that. I'll do that differently next time, right? And then in bigger ways, when they say that someday, you missed this thing or you were, you know, you did this thing and it impacted me in some way. I just plan to say, thank you for telling me. I could totally, I see that now based on what you're saying, that, you know, tell me more, you know, and like how healing that is. Like how many of my clients would, could feel so much differently if they had parents who could say that, you know?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (17:40.822)

Yeah, yeah, I think too, like having especially as like, our generation parents get older. It's like that ability to sit down and have that conversation with someone who is able to hear that conversation and is able to say, you know what? Yeah. Versus, well, it didn't turn out the way you wanted because you didn't do the thing that you were supposed to do, right? Like, just deflect, you know, like Serena Williams.

Erin Spahr (18:04.136)

Right.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (18:09.058)

But I think about too, like the idea of when you talk about like high achieving and people like that, like when you have these goals, like academic goals and career goals and things like that, so much of that is immediate, like do well, get reward, right? But like parenting a child is such a long game, like it's decades before, maybe before you get that feedback.

Erin Spahr (18:22.681)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (18:36.382)

And it's like, you know, you like want to have the repair along the way, but like if there's something that is, and I think I also like to try and remember like, the people that worry about being a bad parent are the people who are doing the right thing kind of thing. It's like, okay, like I'm thinking about these things. I have like some awareness of it and some I'm trying to take the accountability for when stuff gets messed up and all of that along the way.

Erin Spahr (18:49.252)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (19:06.326)

But like, you really might not know for so long. It's just long waiting.

Erin Spahr (19:06.575)

involves trust. You have to trust in your kid, you have to trust in yourself and your future self, right? And especially folks who are anxiety, right? That's like there's so much unknown that can be really challenging to sit with. So yeah, I think it's, yeah, I don't know. It's hard stuff.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (19:28.65)

Yeah. And what I mean, I'm curious to know what you think about. So when thinking about that, like the long term plan or not long term outcome, I guess, long term report card of that and how that feeds into the idea of perfect motherhood that we get fed on social media and things like that. It's like it seems to be this merging of two storms, like wanting to do it right, seeing people who are supposedly, quote unquote, doing it right but they are presenting a version of their day or their life and how that impacts where we, you know, the directions that we may head or the things that we may think are the right thing to do when it's really, are we buying into the performance or is that the way forward?

Erin Spahr (20:14.088)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's lots of layers to this, I think. I'm sure you'd agree. I mean, I think, yes, I think there is a performance happening on social media all the time in different ways. And I think social media is partly about community connection, but I think it's also partly about getting that feedback right away, that reward, right? And so the things that people share, they're sharing with hopes that people will like it or, right, sort of react in some way.

But as far as like motherhood and this like perfectionism, I think part of this is like we take some new information that we get over time with research and the internet. It's like, okay, we have this idea like attachment or we have this idea of like, oh, we're supposed to regulate our emotions. Like these are really helpful things to understand as parents, but then we take them to an extreme and say, well, then your attachment must be like, you know, intense and like all the time and yeah, airtight. And right. We had to like take them out of school and we have to like never leave their side, which is not actually how, what is the, that's unnecessary for a secure attachment, but that's like a side point. But then like, yeah, emotion regulation, which is something, you know, I think I've personally been always trying to like figure out how do I regulate my nervous system.

But the problem is, or one of the problems is that we see this all through an individualistic lens, right? That it's like the responsibility of this like one mom to be perfect, to have their nervous system regulated and to like, you know, calm themselves down and be as attuned as possible. But we're in a setting that doesn't actually provide enough support. And that we're not meant to be doing this child rearing thing on our own, the way that it's happening right now. So we put too much of that responsibility on an individual person or two people or whatever, when we should be, I think, you know, backing up and sort of saying, you know, okay, what is it as a culture that's preventing this mom from being able to be regulated? It's not just, it's her fault.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (22:38.114)

Right. Yeah, it's not.

Erin Spahr (22:39.848)

So that's the lens that I think we need, yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (22:42.302)

Yeah, I like that. I like the idea of really figuring out like systemic change and what that's going to look like. I it makes me hopeful, but also so sad because so much of the systemic change that is going on right now is seems to be running in the other direction of what that is. I mean, childcare costs and health care choices and decisions were allowed to make and depending on where you live and all of those pieces are.

Erin Spahr (22:53.372)

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (23:11.742)

It just, it feels like sometimes it feels like, you know, you're sort of like standing in a hole and you can like, you're like one inch away from being able to reach the edge and like the sides kind of keep crumbling, but you don't ever get a chance to get out. But someone's like, you should be really happy that you're in that hole. It's a nice hole. Don't you like it?

Erin Spahr (23:29.803)

Yeah, yeah, I know. Right. And that's I think I did a post recently about like, any kind of provider, anyone who's supposed to sort of be a support to moms. I think historically, a lot of the approach, I guess, more specifically, like with therapy has been on helping moms cope, right, helping them adapt to motherhood. And that might be okay for some people. Some people might just need a little more support, a little more like psycho education, a place to express their feelings, to like work through some things so that you know what, you're doing a good job, right? And they're okay. But I think for a lot of folks, it can feel like you're in a hole and told to just like, this is it, you have to adjust to this. Yeah, it's your choice, you did that. And now like, we're gonna pathologize your very normal reaction to an abnormal circumstance, right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (24:19.382)

your choice.

Erin Spahr (24:27.667)

And so I think what I'm arguing, and it's tricky because people say, well, okay, like systemic change, yeah, yeah. In the meantime, I have to like figure this out. That, like you said, it feels depressing, it doesn't feel like feasible. But I think what it can help with as we, you know, on one level try to all kind of wake each other up sort of and like say, okay, how can we collectively work toward this and advocate for something else, at the same time using self-compassion to remind yourself when you aren't, sort of being the parent that you really wanna be or that if you're struggling in some way, it's a reminder that not all of that responsibility, some of it, some of that responsibility is on you, right? But some of it, is not. And so therefore, to me, that means being kind to ourselves means like making certain choices to say, you know what, I can do this thing well, but I can't do that thing. And I, I'm making that choice because there is the ideal doesn't exist, at least not right now. Right. So if the doctor says, well, the ideal thing is to do, you know, wait for screen time until this point or, you know, breastfeed for this point or whatever, like whatever the ideal that we're given doesn't necessarily work if we don't have the ideal culture and system to support it. So it's like a little bit of, I think, like that sort of liberation internally to say, well then, you know what? I'm going to do the best I can given the situation and not beat myself up for not making these measures that have been set in front of me and kind of think about what do I have the capacity for?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (26:01.706)

All the other conditions. Yeah.

Erin Spahr (26:23.443)

What are my values? What, you know, where's my energy right now? Right? And then reevaluate as needed and all of that.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (26:32.778)

Yeah, I love that because that really takes into account like that you're trying to human in a world that sometimes doesn't really allow you to human or oftentimes doesn't really allow you to like be a whole person because in motherhood, you're expected to be a conduit for joy and safety and abundance and security and all of those pieces.

However, it's the old like, can't pour from empty cup piece because if you're constantly having to shine out that way in order for others, however, there's nothing, there's nothing on your end of it. How does that, how are you supposed to keep that up? And when we say, when mothers say, okay, like I need this stuff, they say like, go have a hot shower. I'm like.

Erin Spahr (27:26.515)

No, I mean, yes, have a hot shower and like that's, that might get you through that moment fine but yeah, it's not, let's not act like that's gonna, that's enough. It's definitely not enough, you know. And I think another thing people sometimes struggle with is like, yeah, but I don't want my kids to be harmed. And I think that's why this is all like tailored individually to what people's circumstances are.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (27:30.865)

Uh-huh.

Erin Spahr (27:55.459)

But I do think that our kids can benefit more from us taking certain steps back from like tending to some of their needs if it means that like we're going to be happier because they can sense, you know, if we're, if we're like struggling so much, but we're like tending to all their things and being perfect, that's not necessarily going to be better. So you know, we're all gonna have to make different choices. I wouldn't say to someone what that is, like, well, you should be doing this thing or that. You know, I think everyone has to kind of decide where they put their priorities so that they can, and there may be periods of time where they're not happy because they're doing too much. I mean, it's hard, and again, as a therapist, like your job is to help like reduce suffering and figure out how to, you know, what people can make changes around.

But when someone's like, let's say in a situation where they don't have a partner or they have a partner who doesn't do shit or whatever, which I hear so much like from moms is like, just really being like single moms, whether or not they're in a marriage or a partnership. So yeah, like they're not gonna necessarily be happy if they're doing everything. And so I wanna help them figure out how they can get out of that.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (28:57.154)

Mm-hmm.

Erin Spahr (29:19.007)

But sometimes they can't for a period of time or they're not ready to or it's a big deal to leave a marriage that they depend on financially or whatever, but also these are complicated problems often. And so I think sometimes the expectation might be that there's a reason that you're not feeling good and how do we get you, what's the future like?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (29:34.903)

Yeah.

Erin Spahr (29:49.939)

What could be different in the future if right now it's not looking so good, but...

Dr. Ashley Blackington (29:51.714)

Yeah, I think part of that systemic change that we want is in those moments of showing our kids what it means to choose yourself, because I think we always will, I mean, global speak, but I think we will always choose, if we have to, to sacrifice a piece for our kids.

Erin Spahr (30:14.044)

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (30:18.894)

But that is in itself becoming the message that gets carried on down. And so in those moments of like, I have had enough, I cannot do this, like there I have come up against some hard barrier. And in order to be successful, or in order to be doing the thing that I'm told that I should be doing, I'm going to make a different choice. We're not going to be doing this time. And then we're going to move towards a direction that feels better. Because I do I do fundamentally like I agree that our kids want us to be happy. It's not their job to make us happy, but our kids want us to, you know, they wanna be around someone who is happy and who enjoys spending time in all of those pieces. And remembering that if we are going a million miles an hour in 15 different directions, how much of us is showing up in all of those directions?

Erin Spahr (30:51.795)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And kids will, they're so adaptive. They will try to find a way to make us happy if we aren't able to do that on our own, right? That's something that I think is like crucial to their attachment, right? If your caregiver isn't okay, right? Then you want to, as a little kid, you want to feel in control of that. You need your caregiver to be okay. So you might, you know, do things to sort of help, you know, tried to help. Obviously they don't really have that power, but like we see that like in adults who kind of did feel that kind of responsibility. So it's tricky and it's not something that's like, well, if you're unhappy, then you have to feel guilty. You know, we only have so much control.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (31:57.207)

Right.

Erin Spahr (32:12.807)

And so that's why, again, I think self-compassion, people hear self-compassion. I think if you really study like Dr. Kristin Neff is someone who actually talks about like self-compassion and like studies it and talks about the power of it. It's definitely a practice, but this idea, it's not like let yourself off the hook. It's more like connect to the greater humanity. Like you're just a person. You're just a, like we're all just people. We're not, there's no way we can do everything right. There's no way.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (32:12.846)

Mm-hmm.

Erin Spahr (32:41.727)

And so being able to sort of offer yourself that kind of empathy that you would to someone else who was saying like, I'm struggling and I'm trying to do it all how would you approach them? Well, doing that for ourselves can actually be really helpful and a really good coping skill, even though a lot of us grew up thinking I need to be hard on myself. But like we know that a coach that like can cheer you on and knows that you're doing the best you can actually is gonna get you further than the coach that just like beats up on you and tells you like you're not good enough, right? So I think it's something that I think people you know, might kind of brush off. It's like, oh, self-compassion, yeah, yeah. But like, it's actually a real tool to look into.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (33:16.35)

Yeah, I, during the pandemic, maybe I can't remember when, but early on in the pandemic, one of the things that I did was went back into therapy. And it was I was at a point where I was like, this is this is a lot, there's a lot going on. And like, again, like, there's no, it's one of those crazy situations where there's so much pressure, and there's nowhere for it to go. And I was like, you know, who knows how long this is going to go on for? Jokes on me. Um, but, but one of the first things that she, that she said was she said, you should read fearless. It's fearless self-compassion by Kristin Neff. And I read it and I was like, Oh, really? So much of the concept is it's not like, like when we make a list, when I feel like when we talk to ourselves about whatever situation we're in, it's like one or two points, like good or bad.

Erin Spahr (34:13.14)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (34:13.966)

However, the list is really long on pros and cons and factors and all of those things. And it's like taking that step back and looking at the whole big picture and doing the, I guess, doing the thing that most kids that were raised in the 80s and 90s probably didn't do because we had like, I had the hockey coach that was screaming and breaking sticks and swearing at people. Oh, I mean, I grew up in Canada. So yeah, it's a culture.

Erin Spahr (34:21.713)

Oh my gosh. Yeah. It's really serious. They take their hockey seriously. Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (34:44.346)

Really? Yeah, I mean, those stories are who. But that but from that point, it's like that idea of like drive, drive. And I also played on boys teams. So it was it was even more like I am not in Kansas. I am in Canada. Holy cow. But it's that idea of like, let's stop and evaluate the whole picture instead of that tiny little lens that you feel like that it's okay for you to have that tiny little lens. We deserve the whole picture.

Erin Spahr (35:16.335)

Yes. And she also talks about another part of it. I don't know how much detail you get into this, but the sort of fierce self-compassion part where there's actually parts of it that's kind of radical, taking, kind of advocating for yourself or doing really hard things. Sometimes self-compassion means doing something you don't want to do, right? Because you're taking care of yourself in a certain way.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (35:38.2)

Mm-hmm.

Erin Spahr (35:45.427)

I mean, there's other lenses we could use, like the sort of like re-parenting idea or the sort of like mothering yourself idea of like how am I, what's the inner voice that we can use to sort of kind of see the like child in us? Like is that easier to empathize with like a younger version like you would your own child you know and imagine how you're talking to them that way. So that's another kind of way in I think sometimes people do to kind of, hey this is hard, like you're doing okay. You're doing your best, you know? I think a lot of moms, parents need that.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (36:13.186)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (36:19.534)

What is the book, The Body Keeps the Score? Is that one of the reparenting?

Erin Spahr (36:25.008)

Um, that's Bethel Vanderkook, I think. Body Keeps the Score. Yeah, I guess. I mean, he definitely talks about, I don't know, I don't think of him as like a re-parenting person, but he definitely does like body work.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (36:28.986)

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (36:36.534)

Yeah, who's the re- Yeah, who's the re-parenting person? I know that I've read a-

Erin Spahr (36:42.923)

I mean, I think of it to me as like IFS. I think of it as a little bit like parts work. So to me, like, I don't know who the person is. I think there's somebody who talks about like the mother wound, what's her name? I'm really bad at names. Oh, I don't.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (36:47.372)

Mm hmm. I'm going to I'm going to look it up and put it in the show notes because I remember reading I remember reading like an IFS and internal family systems book and thinking like, Oh, I get it. It's not just like, it's not just like you go back and like, hold your four year old self. It's like you go back and give yourself credit for where you were then and then carry that credit. It's like it's like conducting like the checks and balances on yourself that you would do for everybody else.

Erin Spahr (37:18.179)

Yeah. And like when they're a four-year-old, it's like, well, yeah, there's like different, you're going to give that four-year-old a lot more leeway, I hope, than your like adult self now. It's sort of like, yeah, like your four-year-old that made that decision or did that thing based on what the power that they didn't have and, you know, all of that. And recognize like it, where is the four-year-old now? Like, is the four-year-old like making it? Are there certain times when you feel like you're accessing that part of you?

And what does that four year old need or can that four year old step back and you have your bring your more adult self? Like it's just like a lot, I think it's a lot of like self-awareness, just sort of internal. Again, we were taught often to look external, you know, for like feedback and like, someone tell me what to do and like, is this good enough? Is this good enough? Like, am I good? Am I good? Like, it's like kind of this like looking in and like, you are good. Like you're good. It's okay, you're human. You made mistakes.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (38:05.247)

Yeah.

Erin Spahr (38:25.959)

That's all right. Like, you know, let's keep going. Let's keep, keep going forward. You know? So, I don't know. It's a, it's, it's a process to be a, be a person. That's where I, I land.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (38:34.206)

It is. Yeah, humaning is hard in human world. And so when you so now you do work in the feminist motherhood landscape lens, that piece like how so have you you've had the practice for how long has that been you said?

Erin Spahr (38:39.92)

Yes. Well, I opened my own practice in during the pandemic before that was like a group.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (39:01.138)

Okay. Smart. So smart.

Erin Spahr (39:07.535)

It worked. I kind of had to, because it was, yeah, virtually doing someone else's practice. And it was, yeah, I took the leap. So, um, and now I only see folks virtually and I love it. I love being in my house.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (39:16.663)

Yeah, it's awesome. The power of hot coffee and comfortable pants is pretty so intense.

Erin Spahr (39:27.211)

Comfortable pants, yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (39:49.97)

So that's a really interesting timeline. So as people have moved through the, being in the thick of the pandemic and as they transition out, and more of these things are going on when it comes to regulations and awareness and social media and all those pieces, like, are you noticing trends for where people are getting to these like stuck points or friction points? Or is there common stuff that is coming up?

Erin Spahr (39:59.199)

Yeah, interesting. I think that there is impending doom and there's existential dread that I think was happening in the pandemic and was hard as a provider, like sitting with it while going through it was really challenging. And, you know, politically, like, I think people are already gearing up for the election stress.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (40:21.567)

Ha!

Erin Spahr (40:30.783)

I'm starting to hear like what, so I think there's just a lot of instability, obviously, like with all the things that are going on right now, locally and abroad, like there's just a lot of instability right now. So I don't know, I think that that's hard, just to kind of feel like we're the adults, you know, we're the leaders right now, who's leading us, who's helping to hold the hope and to sort of has a vision.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (40:56.501)

Yes.

Erin Spahr (40:58.303)

It feels like that's missing. And I think that insecurity just like trickles down, you know? So that's kind of more like a global thing that I think is happening. And I mean, my particular clients, I think are... like expressing anger and frustration and, um, focusing on grief. We focus a lot on grief, um, and just sort of like grief of what you thought being a mom would be or grief of yourself, you know, and kind of what you had before. So, um.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (41:41.686)

That's a big transition, that identity shift that goes from here is me, I am just one person, to like I am one person and I am wholly responsible for this. Or I am wholly responsible but I am also doing this in a partnership so they are also responsible. But still, that is a big transition.

Erin Spahr (42:04.031)

Right. Yeah. And I think, um, the partnership piece is often so tricky, like figuring out how to communicate that. Like I, I'll have these women who come to me and like, I, you know, I put it out there. I put my values out there. Like I'm the feminist mom. Like, so, so that's not for everyone. Right. But like, I think it's helpful for people to kind of know what they're signing up for. And obviously you can hear from like this conversation, like it's not just feminism.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (42:21.45)

I love it.

Erin Spahr (42:36.531)

There's like, you know, my approach is actually not so much, like that's not even like a lot of the content of individual therapy, but it's this extra lens of like, on top of it of saying like, yeah, but what you're dealing with isn't okay. This isn't acceptable. I'm going to like, acknowledge that for you. But I think it is hard when then these women who I'm seeing, like, they're trying to negotiate the domestic labor and the mental load and trying to help their partners empathize with their, you know, experience where their partners are really going through, you know, they didn't have their own therapy and they're lashing out. And then a lot of my clients are like, I have to also, you know, take care of my, my partner's emotions who were, you know, so I think that part of it can be so hard. Like when we are parenting with someone, like, it's so difficult that we don't have as much control. Like we have to, we have to rely on this other person to do their own work right? And so that's a struggle because I don't think men have caught up to where in general, obviously there are individual differences, but like in general, women are doing this work. Women are going to therapy. Women are trying to heal their child. Women are trying to heal intergenerational trauma. They're trying to parent differently than their parents did.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (43:35.534)

Mm-hmm.

Erin Spahr (44:04.499)

They're on Instagram, following the Dr. Becky's and they're listening to podcasts reading books and I feel like in general men are not doing that kind of introspection, that kind of skill building, that kind of healing and it's causing so much friction because I think women, again, we're the most educated women of all time. We have, we've been like, you know, there was a bit more of this like girl power empowerment thing that some of us grew up with, which also has created a lot of, because we have this girl power crap and we're still supposed to be domestic, like good moms. So we don't, we can't do both. We don't know how to do both. We feel like incomplete without, like we don't, we're navigating that. And we have this generation of men as partners who really didn't get a lot of like awareness of how to support empowered women or what their role was going to be in that.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (44:38.174)

Right.

Erin Spahr (45:00.083)

Like how you know, what they were really as dads, like what that wasn't something I think was super nurtured. Of course, they're doing more than their dads, you know, did, you know, we know that but I just still feel like there's this imbalance. And so I think finding a place for men to go. It's a lot of times I'll like send clients, he's like couples counselors, and I'm really into trying to find more couples counselors who have a feminist lens because I think I've seen a lot of harm that can happen when couples counselors, and I've done couples counseling, I kind of got a little tired of it, so I have like one couple left. Like, ah! But yeah, like just being able to sort of not gaslight, you know, and not be like, well, have you tried communicating your needs to your husband? It's like, wait, we're, it's like way deeper than that.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (45:32.962)

That's intense. Yes.

Erin Spahr (45:57.071)

And so I think I will sometimes we'll send these recommendations and some of these men are like, this person says feminist all over their thing. I don't know about that. Like they're so turned off. And obviously that I could see why that would be. But I just think we need men to like pull each other up, like hold each other accountable and say, this is gonna be good for you. It's gonna be good for you to do this work too. So I think we're in a place of trying to figure out where men fit. And I think a lot of women are giving up to be honest.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (46:09.624)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Erin Spahr (46:24.903)

A lot of women are like, you know what, this marriage thing is not working. And a lot of women are saying, I'm actually capable of doing things of my own. I'm actually, this men are weighing me down the way that it has been. I think we're in an interesting time where I think men need to like get with the program or else women are gonna kind of go without them is how it feels.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (46:46.866)

Yeah, I definitely agree. I think that there's so much of the focus on. I think it's interesting because for so long it was like, you know, women are the nurturers and the caregivers, and you have to like adjust emotionally and you have to interpret and you have to like sort of like figure out where everyone's at and keep the peace. And like those skills are. For for however you learn them, those skills that it is a skill, right? And then women started to develop these tools of advocacy and empowerment and social-emotional learning and pieces like that. That sort of ran in the river alongside of it. It was like, that's okay, you can do that. Then we got to a point where it was like, we're good, we're solid here, we're solid on this. There's been no overarching...

And it's hard because the opposite of a feminist approach doesn't exist. I'll like totally go out there and fight the good fight on that. Because the opposite of feminism is not patriarchy. The opposite of, I mean, that exists all in its own like crap corral as far as I'm concerned. But like this like advocacy and education and empowerment and conversation and communication and those pieces that come in the feminist lens and realm and perspective to varying degrees, there just isn't like an option. And so if you're not super masculine because that's looked at as the opposite, then what are you, right? And like, where does that go? And there's just no education, no tool building, no nothing, I've said this for ever and ever, like for a boy between the ages of 10 and 25 and a man of 25.

Erin Spahr (48:28.839)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (48:41.41)

There's legitimately nothing that has changed in the last, I don't know how long. I do have hope though, because so my oldest son is nine and he was last two weeks ago, he was at a Lacrosse camp at the high school, at our local high school and they have this, what is it called? It's called the One Love program and I had never heard of it.

Erin Spahr (48:48.437)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (49:10.334)

And it's all about relationships and empathy and safety and all of these things, right? So, oh, I'm crying the whole time. Full, like, let's set the scene here. I am crying, I have sunglasses on, just crying by myself in the stands while there's other people around, but I wasn't talking to anyone.

Erin Spahr (49:16.211)

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (49:40.298)

So they go out and they have these teenage boys have these one love shirts on and they're out. I mean, of course they're still spitting on the AstroTurf, like throwing stuff at each other and all of that. But, but they are developing relationships with these younger boys that are coming out, like it's my kid's age and they're playing catch and they're supporting them. And like, there's kids that are nervous to go out on the field and these guys are, they're not like, hey man, come on, let's get out there. It's like, hey, whenever you're ready, like one little boy, he was terrified. And this guy like crouched down next to him. And then they were like, went through the whole, again, crying tears. Because I grew up in that like super macho, breaking sticks, swearing and all that. And at the end, the coach has all of the high school boys and all of the younger boys all together. And they took a picture and he said, look around at all these high school boys, you see that they're wearing these shirts.

Erin Spahr (50:11.837)

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (50:35.81)

And then he gave this whole speech about empathy, respect, kindness, like compassion, all of this stuff and how it all layers together. It was all through the lens of like sport and stuff like that. I'm a mess. I'm a mess because I'm like, this is how it's, this is how it's going to change. No one, no one is standing up there making fun of it.

Erin Spahr (50:42.275)

Mm-hmm. They need this. Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (51:02.05)

There's no like, not the coach is incredibly serious, incredibly well spoken about this and they're like, you know, my son came home with these lacrosse balls that are signed from school players and he's like, Oh my god, can you believe this happened? And I'm like, so I've hope. Yeah. And it's stuff like that. Like, I feel like it's these programs that are going to start on this level. And so I think that having this platform to talk about like why this is important is going to create different opportunities that will eventually

Erin Spahr (51:08.356)

Let's sign every kid up for that. That sounds amazing.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (51:32.302)

It's not the trickle-down economics approach, but like the shining the light on the issue. And so these programs will start and they will flourish because, yeah, it's got to be different. You can't go on and expect women to grow and develop all of these skills and expect no change on the other half.

Erin Spahr (51:36.939)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, we're like evolving past men and like, I love men. Yeah, I mean, I have a husband, I love him. But I got two, yeah, it's not about not, and just as we finish up, it's not about not loving them.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (51:53.566)

Yeah. You got a house full of boys.

Erin Spahr (52:20.775)

It is loving them. It's wanting them to also be able to have healthy relationships and to have these skills and to work with you. And yeah, I think evolving is important. I actually, my, husband hasn't been a super like activisty guy, but he recently was in this like leadership program through his work, whatever. And he really like learned something like flipped on about environmentalism to him. And like, he's like, I'm like really into the like concerned about it. And so he's like, all these books in the library, and we just got a composter. And I'm like, this is such a turn on. Like, social activism. Thank you, like, dude. And that's not an area where I'm like, as the leader, I'm like, yes, you take a lead on helping, like, move forward, looking at our lives, how can we be more, you know, like, whatever. So again, like, I think we need, women are wanting partners who are going to grow. And I think we're wanting to raise kids who are, yeah, thoughtful. And that doesn't take away from their masculinity. That can be empathy and masculinity can co-exist, all that. So.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (53:12.063)

Yes, and creating the spaces for that to happen and creating the safety and security through this attachment for people to explore stuff like vulnerability, where traditionally it's like, you can only be vulnerable if you're safe. That's, and so creating those opportunities. I could sit here and talk to you all day. But you have to go and help other people.

Erin Spahr (53:29.308)

Exactly. Yeah, this was really easy.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (53:43.97)

And so I really appreciate you coming on. I would love for you to let everyone know how they can follow you, how they can listen to your podcast, because I think that the work that you're doing is great. And I would anything that I can do to support it.

Erin Spahr (53:57.995)

Thank you so much. Now, again, this was lovely. It's nice to be on the other side too sometimes just to kind of, yeah, experience both sides. But yeah, you can follow me on Instagram at feminist.mom.therapist And my podcast is called Feminist Mom Podcast. Basically you can find all that through the website, but my website is erinspartherapy.com.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (54:02.424)

I love it. Well, thank you again so much for joining me today.

Erin Spahr (54:25.643)

Thank you. This was wonderful. Thank you, Ashley.