Full Episode Transcript

Dr. Ashley Blackington (00:01.514)

All right, welcome back to the AND/BOTH podcast. I am here today with Justine Carino, and she is from Carino Mental Health Counseling based out of New York. And welcome. I'm excited to have you here today.

Justine Carino (00:14.661)

Hi Ashley, thank you so much for having me on today. I'm really excited to talk to you.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (00:20.97)

Yeah, I think there's a couple of questions that I have, but before we get started, I would love for you to share maybe a little bit about you and what you do, and we'll go from there.

Justine Carino (00:32.605)

Absolutely. So I am a licensed mental health counselor, and I practice in New York and Connecticut. I specialize in the treatment of anxiety disorders, but I also do a lot of couples therapy and family therapy. I have a podcast called Thoughts From the Couch, where I focus on conversations related to the working mom, trying to do it all and juggle it all. I also have a coaching program for ambitious working moms that needs some support with stress and anxiety management due to a history of people pleasing and perfectionism.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (01:13.322)

and I'm sure that you have like people falling all over themselves to like call and email because it really feels like that's a pretty big population to pull from, unfortunately, but.

Justine Carino (01:25.929)

It is. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in some ways the pandemic brought mental health to the forefront of people's minds and the pandemic also changed a lot for working mothers because they were thrown in this role of how do I now parent with my kids at home and work? And we've seen all the effects of that ever since. But it's, I'm busy. I have a wait list for individuals. Anything that's telling for the type of support people are looking for these days.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (01:59.518)

Yeah, yeah, I just finished. So my first season of this podcast was very, ended up being very long because I wasn't really sure how to like group it all together. You know, you sort of like learn on the fly with everything, including motherhood. And so I just looked back at episodes and was recording kind of like a summary piece. And I realized how many mental health professionals I had on during season one. And like, as I look at the recording, calendar, it just keeps on coming. 

But it's people that are all trying to help women in this space in different ways, which is great, because not every lock fits a key or whatever, not every key fits a lock. But there is this global or this big realization that this is an area that's not necessarily like, yes, people are running businesses doing this, but it's an area of need that people have really just sort of, it's been this black hole for so long. And now things like the pandemic and things like, um, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion, gender equality, all of these things that come out have really sort of turned the spotlight onto this piece, which I think is, is only going to help women and mothers as, as we move forward generationally.

Justine Carino (03:26.773)

Absolutely. I mean, I didn't go into my career thinking a big part of my career would become focusing on maternal mental health at all. And I went into this career just excited about helping people and just wanting to absorb myself in the research and the studying and the you know the cognitive behavioral therapy and the OCD and I wanted to learn about everything and so when I graduated I was in a psychiatric hospital and I got to see a lot of disorders that were untreated coming in fresh and it was fascinating to see how much medication can help people and once they recovered and were on the right thing in a psychiatric hospital then they were you know sent back home and provided a therapist and then I was like I want to be that relationship with and as time went on I worked a lot with adolescents and I quickly learned that you cannot treat an adolescent without really working with their parents. And then I started learning all of the family dynamics behind mental health that unless we work with the family and the parents we're not going to see that teenager thrive or flourish in the way they need to be.

And so I started getting more training in Boinian family systems and kind of behavioral therapy. But when I became a mother is when I got more clarity of wow, this is really hard. No one has taught me how to manage this. No one has taught me how to take care of myself and my kids and my relationship, my marriage the way I want to. And that's what really launched me, the birth of my second child into, wait a minute, I wanna help other working women that are trying to juggle this all.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (05:18.522)

Yeah, yeah, agreed. I feel like it's such a thing that every mom has some sort of like reckoning of what you expected it to be like and what it's actually like, but it keeps happening over and over and over again. And then also too, like not to negate, when you have multiple children, it's not like it happens once when you have your first child then it's just more children. Like there's always that joke, right? Like, oh, it's just one more sandwich. It's like a whole other spin cycle all over again. So every single one is different and brings about its own changes and adjustments and all of that piece, yeah. Phew.

Justine Carino (05:52.222)

Yes.

Justine Carino (06:01.473)

Absolutely, absolutely. And having the first child, it was like, you know, it was all exciting and new and like I knew it would be hard but I didn't know how hard having two kids would be. And I don't know if that would, like I thought my life would stay the same adding a second child, which was really naive of me. It's like, oh, I know how to do this now. Like adding the second one in, it's just gonna be easy. I already know this, but it really changed so much. And I hear that a lot from friends too. And the women I work with, like that second, every new child they bring into the family, it's a whole readjustment process to the family dynamic, to their marriage to their relationship with their career, to everything.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (06:47.562)

Yeah, it's pretty interesting. So when you have people come in, because you have a wide variety of offerings, how do people usually start to interface with you? Is it one-to-one, they're on the wait list, and so they're like, okay, well, I'm on the wait list, but I'm gonna do this instead? Or the other way, do they trickle in sort of smallest stream to largest stream, for lack of a better description?

Justine Carino (07:11.81)

Yeah, so I'd say the majority of the clients I work with are local in Westchester County in New York and I'm also licensed in Connecticut so I have a lot from the Connecticut border that come to. So I'm known locally for treating anxiety disorders and I was known mostly for teenagers and then I kind of shifted into college students and adults. So most of my clients on the wait list are looking for that one-to-one personalized treatment because they're struggling either with symptoms of an anxiety disorder or they want couples therapy or family therapy. And then it's kind of like I have the second business, right, like the second branch of where I'm doing more of like this coaching model where I can coach one to one with really anyone anywhere, but it's really skills-based. We're looking towards the future. And then this group that I have, it's a coaching group for the ambitious working women. So I think what happens most commonly is I'm working with people one-to-one. 

And then from that one-to-one, I realized, wow, like we need a sense of community too. Like I wish I could put all these women together. We're all talking about the same things. And I wanna be able to offer a group because I feel like there's so much struggle when we feel isolated, when we feel like we're the only ones going through this. And I think there's so much resilience and strength in seeing other people that are going through what we're doing and saying, oh, like you understand me, I'm not the only one going through this. So that's where the idea of the group came in is, let me introduce these women to each other. And in my last group, I had women from everywhere. I had one woman from Canada, one woman from California. Everywhere we go.

Justine Carino (09:01.745)

There's women that can relate to this struggle. And so those women are finding me probably through my podcast, probably through my social media, or maybe they've been one-on-one and I've recommended them to the group.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (09:16.062)

I love that. I think that it's so true. Like, I definitely I remember when the idea of launching this podcast, I kicked it around, I kicked it around for a long time, like two years, you know, it was a it was an overnight decision. And it was it was that idea of like, I feel like these things are things that I think about and the things that I have felt. And is somebody else going to feel that same way? 

And like, I opened the sign up to have people come on and like, you read the blurbs of people that are like, I identify with the AND/BOTH in this way, and I'm reading through these, and I was like, oh, okay. I'm like me myself, I am not the only person who feels this way, and just the number of people that are doing these different careers and different parenting and different arrangements and all of that stuff are all still in that same like I struggle with trying to be me and do this. And it feels like everything that I do that is not whoever I'm talking to's opinion is wrong. And I feel isolated and I feel like I can't talk to anybody and, and so it's just, it's been, it's really refreshing to hear. It's not refreshing in the way that it's still happening, but it's really refreshing to hear from other people who are like, no, yeah, me too. Definitely. And like, also, here's my own personal twist on that.

Justine Carino (10:44.665)

Absolutely. I think it's really interesting what's happening with our generation of women right now is we are at a place that we can start to talk about wanting more fairness about what's going on at home in terms of gender roles and who's doing what right we're allowed to talk we're in a our mothers and grandmothers have set us up for this moment right like they did a lot. Like I often think, I ask my mom, like, how did you do that? Like my mom worked full time, right? But she also probably did 99% of the household stuff back then too. And I'm like, wow, like how did you do it all and try and have time for yourself? So they did a lot of the work for us, our grandmothers and their mothers. So our generation of women can start to say like, I need help. Like, no one modeled to me how I can take care of myself and everyone else. And so we're in this position, we're able to ask for that right now.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (11:49.794)

Yeah, yeah, it definitely has to happen in like a stepwise way. Like it won't, it's not just an overnight piece. And so when you, so how will they hear kids? That was one of my questions.

Justine Carino (12:02.245)

Yeah, I forgot to mention them in my intro. I have a three-year-old daughter and a six-year-old son. So they're first grade and preschool.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (12:12.818)

Nice. And so how do you juggle this big, big career and all of these roles and responsibilities? Because I mean, I don't know, I don't know who's listening, but like if you've ever done like a group coaching or created a course or, you know, had a client list or all of this stuff, like the administration and the management and all of those pieces is could be multiple jobs all on its own because it's just so much content and so much management. So how do you juggle the juggle?

Justine Carino (12:47.801)

I love that question and this is a work in progress. This is something I really focused on since the second, right, I feel like I juggled better when I had one. Now that I have two kids, I had to really think about things and I can tell you. I'm gonna read off so many things that have helped. One is I've hired help in my business to take things off my plate, right? So I have an assistant, her name's Brianna, and she does so much for me, whether it's getting back to clients that wanna get on the wait list or let her inquiring about therapy and other resources I offer. She helps me with my podcast coordination and promotion. She helps with the show notes, right? I've hired a podcast editor to do the editing. Like I really look into hiring help because I don't want those extra hours on the plate and I really value being more present. And so if I could focus my work hours with client time, like I'm here seeing the clients one-to-one and doing podcast stuff like recording or being on podcasts, that's a great day. And all the admin stuff I leave to my support team. And then also because my wait list was so long, I ended up hiring another clinician to work in my practice. Her name's Anne Marie. She's an old friend of mine. We used to work together in the psychiatric hospital. And that was perfect timing too, where she said, hey, I want to start seeing clients in private practice. I said, come aboard, I need some help. We know there's a demand out there. So she sees clients as well. So I really believe in getting help. I also believe in boundaries, right? And this is something that

Dr. Ashley Blackington (14:16.952)

Yeah.

Justine Carino (14:28.513)

Every week I'm trying to negotiate of what are my work hours and what are my home hours, right? And I'm playing with those numbers all the time for the most part. I try not to go over 22 client individual sessions a week, right? So that's probably about five or six a day. I try not to work. And there's you know administrative tasks. I'm calling psychiatrists. I'm calling family members like that back-end stuff I have to do so when I for the past like six years I haven't worked on Fridays or tried not to so I could be home with whoever the little one is in my life.

So that I would say are like probably the biggest things is like hiring help and keeping boundaries with my work hours So the best that I can but also on a personal level I just graduated therapy. I went back to therapy a year ago and I met with my therapist every other week, pretty much for a year, to talk about so many parts of myself that needed healing, right? I try and help the people pleasers and perfectionists because I'm a people pleaser and a perfectionist. So I really needed to heal that part. My husband and I went to couples therapy for about five or six months this past year because we felt like we had to pay attention to our marriage adapt to our busy lives in that way and nurture ourselves because marriage has changed too over time. And I also have invested in business coaches to help me, you know, grow in advance and directions that I want. So I guess the theme is get the help, whether it's personal or professional.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (16:08.674)

Yeah, yeah, I definitely, you know, and I think too, like the thing that's really, maybe, I think this could be pandemic related, it could be economy related, whatever it is, but I feel like there is also this realization that like you don't have to hire a full-time person. Like I feel like for me in my own business, like the idea was always like, it was either me doing all of it, or I had to hire somebody full-time. And like, there's so many, there's so many like Swiss army knife people now that can really do so many things. And they also wanna have control over their schedule. And you know, they have a skillset.

Justine Carino (16:42.354)

Yes.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (17:09.862)

And so I started, I would say last summer, last summer I hired a virtual assistant and it was the first person that I had hired. And I was like, it was one of those things, like everything was moving so fast that I had to slow down enough to be like, I actually don't even know what to hand you right now, because everything is just like the train has left the station, right?

Justine Carino (17:18.83)

Yeah. I'm sorry.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (17:38.39)

But I love the idea of, you know, where you see a need, whether it's personal or professional or whatever, instead of saying, well, like, I guess this goes in my like baggage cart and you just carry on. It's like you know, that it's that idea that quadrant of like, making decisions about what you can delegate and what you can take on and what, you know, what is not even important for you to do. And it's that like grid of is, am I the one to do this? And is this important to me? Am I the one to do this? And this isn't important to me. And, you know, you know how that plays out. I'll post it on the show notes because my hand signals don't really translate in a podcast, but in an audio only podcast.

Justine Carino (18:06.444)

Mmm. I'm clownin'.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (18:08.206)

Yeah. But I like the idea of when things start to tick to a place where it becomes that like everything's falling off the plate, that you're saying, okay, what is this one specific task? And then being able to find the people that do that one specific task or that cloud of tasks that you can say, I give this to you. Thank you very much.

Justine Carino (18:30.773)

Absolutely. And it's like, it's hard. And I don't know if people can relate to this. Like, I'm someone that is a perfectionist and excited and has a lot of ideas. So every time I do something, I want it to be the best. I don't want to give something half of my effort. It's just really uncomfortable. And I think I've learned this past year that I have to be very realistic with myself and stop saying, I'm gonna do all of these things and I'm gonna do all of them really well and I'm gonna see these great outcomes. I had to chop away and actually let go of projects or ideas because I couldn't dedicate the time I wanted to with them realistically. And if I looked at my values, right? And I really believe values should help all of us guide our decisions, whether it's parenting or career, my values lately have been, I wanna be more present at home.

And I want to be more present with what I'm doing with my clients. Like I want to be effective with my clients. I want to have that seat. I want them to have outcomes. I rather have 20 to 22 clients on my calendar a week and I can stay on top of it and know they have outcomes. Then 40 clients with mass volume and I'm lost and I'm not helping anybody. Right. Um, same with like ambitious projects. I've had to be real and be like, okay, in order to do this successfully that would require probably another 10, 12 hours per week that I don't want to give right now because I wanna be home after school, right? And that's hard for a lot of people to let go of. And I had to get off this wheel of saying, I could do it all, I can do it all, I can do it all. I can't, I really can't do it all. And I have to prioritize what needs my attention right now.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (19:59.819)

Yeah. And I also wonder too, like, is there an element for that in there for you that's like, in order to be successful, it's that idea of like having to do it all yourself, otherwise, it doesn't mean the same thing? Like, does that play into that piece?

Justine Carino (20:35.365)

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. And I think there's a control piece too. Like if I let someone take this over, they're not going to do it as well as me or like, and this sounds crazy too. Like we're sometimes comfortable with pushing our limits and doing too much and that tension. So if we add help, we take away tension and we have room to breathe and that is sometimes uncomfortable. That was uncomfortable for me. Like this was the first school year that I was home so much earlier and I'm like twiddling my thumbs, like at the bus stop, like wow, I'm here to get my son off the bus. I'm sitting here like chilling. I'm not walking in like a maniac at 6 p.m. today. Like it was uncomfortable to have more time for my family and myself, is actually more comfortable to be overwhelmed and chaotic all the time. And that's part of my nervous system I think I've been healing, if that makes sense.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (21:39.818)

Yeah, and how many women do you see that also identify with that? Because I feel like this idea of like, overwhelm creates value. And if we're not overwhelmed because we're not doing all the things and we're not going a million miles an hour, then what is the value add?

Justine Carino (21:45.769)

Thank you.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (22:06.562)

And I think too, especially for like moms who are home, it's like, this is how I show the value is by or it's internalized. This is the value of what I do is all of these things because there's always that like financial component to it. So how many people do you think like percentage wise, not specific names, but like how many people do you think like that you would see that are like, yeah, no, like anxiety is not a place I wanna be, but I also don't know how to be any other place.

Justine Carino (22:12.348)

Yeah, the women that are in my doors, I'd say 100%, 100% of those women relate to this. And it's also like the moms I have chosen not to work and to be present at home, right? Even that too, like I have conversations with women saying, you know, next year, my youngest is at preschool and I have dedicated the last six, eight years to being a stay at home mom. And I'm petrified of what I'm gonna do with myself during those times, my youngest is in school now. I'm scared of like, what does that mean for me? And so that's not quote unquote paid work. They've been working really hard to be present at home and take care of these kids. And that is so much work, right? Being home and not having an outlet outside of the home.

So even for those women too, there's a level of like, huh, like who am I outside of these roles? I guess we're talking about roles as women, like whether you're in the home or outside of the home or whatever you're doing, we take on these roles. And when those roles change, we have to adapt. And sometimes that feels really scary.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (23:44.274)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think too a lot of like my, so I have four and three of them are in full-time school now and my youngest is finishing his first year of preschool and he just goes part-time. This year when he went into school, there was, you know, parents that had like one kid and they were like, what are you going to do with your time when all your kids are out of the house? And I was like, okay, let's be realistic. It's four hours on Tuesday and Thursday, actually like three and a half by the time I've like dropped him off and come home. And it's like, like the this idea that like I am forever searching to be the woman that is sitting in the cafe reading the book and drinking the hot coffee.

Justine Carino (24:16.858)

Yes, where is she? Who is she?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (24:40.802)

Like what we have who is she and like honestly there's a lot of times when I've been like, you know, pushing the kid in the giant stroller into the store to get coffee because no one's eaten and it's just like this whole thing where you feel like you're the overwhelmed whatever. And I look over and I'm like, what is that about? Like where does, and it's not, she's not doing it right. Like she could have no kids. Like it's not an assumption that she's a mom, but like she could have no kids. But it's just like, how does that space?

Justine Carino (24:53.02)

Yeah. Right? She could have no kids.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (25:11.33)

Like where does that, is there a parking pass for that level of not try not like going a million miles an hour. And maybe that's what she does like 20 minutes a week. And I just happened to see her at that time. But it's always that person.

Justine Carino (25:19.877)

Yes, it's always that person. Who is she? Where is she? What is she doing? I want to know all about her life that she's just leisurely here. We don't know the story behind that, right? To your point. And I think that's also what's hard about this generation of mothers is our mothers and grandmothers didn't have that comparison tool, right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (25:27.246)

Right.

Justine Carino (25:48.977)

To constantly see what are other people doing right now? And I am I on par with what should be done because we have social media, we have these podcasts, we have so many resources around motherhood. And then sometimes that leads to shame of like, how come I'm not doing it right? Or am I doing enough? And the comparison can overwhelm us too and feed that anxiety with the shoulds, right? I should be this way. I shouldn't do this. I should do that. It's a lot. It's har

Dr. Ashley Blackington (26:12.446)

Yeah, it's definitely for sure. And I think, yeah, like again, to your point, like our grandparents' generation of mothers, there's no social media, there's, I mean, there's no computers, right? And everyone is just in it. And yes, they see each other and the kids play outside and there's no fence and all that stuff. But like, our generation of grandmother doesn't know what the mom in Oklahoma is doing on a Wednesday. And like, to that end, like, why do I need to know that?

Justine Carino (26:43.057)

Right, we don't. We don't. I posted something the other day, it was like a repost where it was explaining why people don't answer a text right away. And it was like, can we go back to the times where like, if you weren't home, you don't know if someone called you, right? And then we had the actual voice machine with the voicemails that you would play, and then you would decide on your terms when you were ready to call that person back. Like, I really wanna go back to that. Like, my text messages now are now the new voicemail. Like, oh, I have to read this text and respond to you? Like, do you feel like I have to respond to you today? Like, I need a minute to breathe.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (27:05.974)

Oh, yeah.

Justine Carino (27:28.225)

Like, the two seconds that I'm like finally sitting down. I want to spend on me and now I feel like I have this whole world of emails and tags and DMs and this to respond to. It's like, so back then, like things were easier in some ways. I think moms did have more time to themselves back in the day.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (27:44.59)

What was the statistic? It was like working moms today spend more time with their children than stay at home moms did in that generation.

Justine Carino (27:54.234)

Yes, yes I saw that.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (27:56.594)

And I read that and I was like, I 1000% believe that. And there are factors that have come into place since then that there's nothing we can do about, right? Like, so there's, you know, your parents wouldn't leave you in the, your parents can't leave you in the car and like go in and grab two things at the grocery store now. And you can't walk to the bus stop if you live on a busy road or you can't go down the street necessarily to a playground. It all depends on like,

Justine Carino (28:01.688)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (28:24.822)

where you live and there's all this safety component to consider, but can you imagine being able to be like, all right, go, see you later? In my neighborhood, there's a lot of kids and I know the parents and so my kids sort of have a certain distance, but can you imagine, I mean, even me, it was like, here's a dollar, go to the convenience store eight blocks down the road. Like, how many, how?

Justine Carino (28:42.278)

Great. Oh yeah, a sense of freedom. A sense of freedom for everybody and so much less worry about everything. And I also feel like it's such a trend of like, they're only little for this long and like they're gonna grow up and leave you and there's only this many countdowns of summers.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (28:55.406)

Oh no.

Justine Carino (29:19.133)

And like there's this whole narrative about how these kids are gonna grow up and all of a sudden abandon us and hate us and want nothing to do with us. So our time with them is so limited. And I think that reinforces the anxiety of like, oh, well they're right. I just saw on Instagram, there's this many days left because when they're 12, they're never gonna see us again. And then it's this anxiety of I have to be present. I have to do this right now. They're gonna grow up and leave me and I'm never gonna have them again.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (29:27.404)

Yeah. Right?

Justine Carino (29:46.033)

And that is like such a level of pressure too that I feel like is so unnecessary. Like, hey, oh, magically when they're 12, they're gonna hate us and never talk to us? Like, oh, where's like the fun in parenting when they are teenagers and young adults and we become grandparents? Like, we have these relationships, hopefully, if all goes well, for the rest of our lives. And there's such a scarcity of like, the magic is only now when they're little. And if you miss out on it, you really missed out on it. What do you think about it?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (29:46.69)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (30:11.902)

Yeah. So book your Disney vacation, book your this, do this, do this. And it's like, how are you supposed to, how are you supposed to layer all that in with everything else? Right. Like travel sports. And because, you know, if you pick soccer when you're five, you're definitely going to need to be in a travel sports team when you're seven. And it like you've got to go to Disney, but you can't just go to Disney. You've got to get the package and you've got to stay here and you've got to do this. And then you've got to go skiing. And then you've got like it's just like.

Justine Carino (30:31.055)

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (30:40.63)

There's so many layers and it does, you're right. It all starts with that idea of like, it's your responsibility to make magic and it's your responsibility to make magic right now. By the way, magic is really expensive. And if you don't, then you're bad at this job. And like, this is the only job that matters. Oh, besides the other job that's gonna fund all of these activities that you do, that also matters. So you should do both really well, but like at the same time.

Justine Carino (30:53.487)

Hehehehe. Yeah, and you're gonna traumatize your children in your relationship and you're gonna be a bad mom if you don't do these things. And you're a terrible mom if you raise your voice once in your life and you're a terrible mom if you've done this, that and that extreme gentle parenting. And like this theme of precious moments comes up a lot in my sessions, even to the point where like the solar eclipse, right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (31:17.951)

Yup.

Justine Carino (31:31.505)

Like it was like became like this huge moment in Instagram of like, here's the solar eclipse on Monday, I think it was April 8th at these times, depending on your location, everyone gets a glass, get your glasses, the school's giving out glasses so you can all watch this moment as a family. And then on Instagram, I'm seeing people have like the solar eclipse parties with their kids. And they did some kind of special dessert where like the Oreo. They had 12 Oreos and each one played the stat. And I'm like, ah! I just grab my kids off the bus, throw them glasses, I'm like, look, don't miss it, get back inside, we have to go somewhere else. And then of course you log in and see like, oh shit, I was supposed to make a solar eclipse moment for my family. It wasn't good enough just sitting outside.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (32:01.774)

Right? With a diorama.

Justine Carino (32:20.985)

Yeah, like in second grade, they're like, don't look outside, there's a solar eclipse. I'm like, okay. So I think there's so much pressure to make every single thing the spectacular special moment. And that is just crazy now. It's getting crazy now.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (32:35.789)

Yeah, it's a Pinterest life, right? Like, I got married before Pinterest, and I think that it is the best gift in the world because it's just over the top. Like a wedding is not a wedding anymore. It's like a six day adventure, and then you've gotta go on vacation, you gotta go and do all of the things, right?

Justine Carino (32:43.165)

Oh yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (33:08.078)

And I just think about like, solar eclipse is a perfect example. Like, should you have these like,

themed treats and these activities and all this stuff. And like, what are you doing this for? Like, are you doing this because the solar eclipse means so much to you as like a fundamental core value? Or does it mean so much to you that you are also participating in the dog and pony show that is social media and that like the feeling of FOMO, like really what we're talking about is FOMO.

Justine Carino (33:19.472)

Hehehehe. Yes.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (33:38.775)

FOMO posting is where people are losing their marbles.

Justine Carino (33:43.394)

Losing their marbles.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (33:46.243)

Mm-hmm.

Justine Carino (33:47.569)

And it's like Sunday daughter day, cat day, dog day, spouse a day like all the days and the trends. But you know what this is awesome. So my colleague Anne-Marie that works to be my practice We meet once a month to kind of like do case consultation and help each other with our cases and we were just chit chatting She's like, what are you doing today? It was a Friday. I'm like, well, it's my So crazy. I'm gonna say this like it's I was like, it's my cat's 12th birthday

Dr. Ashley Blackington (33:51.264)

Oh.

Justine Carino (34:17.063)

And I told the kids that we would celebrate it and I have to go now get a Carvel cake for my cat's 12th birthday and she burst out laughing and she verifies me. She's like, well, Justine, where's this expectation coming from? Whose expectation is this? And I died laughing like, you know what, Anne Marie, it's mine. It's my expectation. I did this to myself. I now put stress on my place. I have to run to Carvel. And I was like, you know what? You're so right. What is this expectation that this cat, it's a cat, means happy birthday. And, you know, I thought about it, I was like, it'd be nice, my kid loved the cat, we can sing happy birthday, but it's not for the cat, right? Who is it for? Is it for me? What is this about? Why do we need to do this? We just add to our plates.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (34:50.136)

Right? Mm-hmm. I...Oh my God, I have, so I have a story. So during the pandemic, like the long stretch of the pandemic when like, you know, it's the solar eclipse no one wanted on life. And it was like the day, you know, it's like, what day is it? Where are we? My kids were in virtual school, all this stuff, whatever. My daughter was four at the time. No, maybe three. She was really little. And she comes downstairs in the morning and she announces, so I was home, I work from home and I had all the kids with me.

My son was born two days before a lockdown. And so, yeah, it was cute. And so she comes downstairs with her teddy bear and he's just about to leave for work. So he never missed a day. He's an essential service provider or was considered one then. And so she comes down with her teddy bear. Teddy bear's name is Honey Bear. And she goes, dad, “it's Honey Bear's birthday today.”

Justine Carino (35:31.031)

Wow. Hehehehe

Dr. Ashley Blackington (35:55.958)

And he's like “Happy birthday, Honey Bear.” And she looked at him and she was like, “we are gonna need to decorate. And Honey Bear would like a cake,” like this cake from this bakery place, whatever. But here's the thing, right? It's like, no, I didn't post it on social media. No, it wasn't like this big whole thing. But like, we're all in this dungeon of life at that moment in time. And like, I'm not kidding. I decorated the living room.

Justine Carino (35:59.717)

And that felt good at that moment.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (36:22.338)

He went and got a cake and had them write happy birthday honey bear on it. And he's like, the guy in the bakery was laughing so hard because he couldn't figure out why you were getting a cake for a stuffed animal. And my husband was like, listen, man, sometimes honey bear has a birthday cake.

Justine Carino (36:27.065)

Amazing. I love that. And the moment in time, it probably brought joy to all of you to do that.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (36:47.758)

But it was, yeah, she was just like. Mm-hmm. Right. And I think about that because I'm like, that's the most ridiculous thing ever. But at the time, like that just brought everything up. Had I gone through the process of like posting that on social media and all of that stuff, I would have felt so crappy for doing that because then that turns into that, that like comparative thing. And also I don't wanna kick off a trend where we're celebrating stuffed animals because I have umpteen animals living in my house.

Justine Carino (37:04.717)

Yeah, absolutely. The comparison. That would be the next thing, right? Someone sees that and is like, oh my God, we didn't celebrate my daughter's honey bear's birthday. And then before you know it, there's this trend. It's just, it's a lot, it's a lot to navigate. And I think we have to really get real about expectations, about our value system, our belief system, what's all the noise behind the thoughts, right? What is all this really about for each and every one of us? And how do we start to let go of some things so we can be more present in motherhood?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (37:47.584)

Yeah, I wonder how you feel about like the, when in terms of presence, I feel like presence is having its moment in social media right now with the whole trad wife thing that is, it's not new because it's been around forever, but the idea of like selling a lifestyle as a business. I mean, they are business people, like selling a lifestyle of like slow and presence and like, you know, like, devotion to this one thing. 

However, on the back end, like, yes, they're making money. They're sponsored. They're families that are more than likely in a financial position to do what they're doing, to be able to support this lifestyle, all of these pieces. Like, how do you feel, how do you feel about that when it comes to like the idea of talking about values and presence and things like that? Because I think that people that really want that are. Like, yes, I want that, but then it's like it's trading one evil for another.

Justine Carino (38:56.797)

Hmm, it's so hard. It really is. Well, I think there's a few things that come to mind like

Justine Carino (39:07.461)

Presence probably means different things for different people, right? But and so what does that mean for that individual person? What does presence look like is it your present for two hours straight and you have undivided attention to your tasks at hand is presence just Five minutes right of your time. Does that feel good? So I think we have to measure presence in different ways, but I think what you're saying is people are now trying to sell this value and sell products that lean into, if you are present now, you won't miss out on these things.

So buy this thing to help you feel more present, which I mean, I think it's all part of a sales scheme at times, or they're just trying to sell you something. And I think we can't determine what presence means for everybody, it could be completely different. There might be a mom that works three jobs. She's a single mom with three kids and has to work three jobs. So maybe her version of presence is she got to tuck her kids into bed tonight, right? And that's the best she can do for right now. So I think, who are we to judge what?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (39:52.396)

Yeah.

Justine Carino (40:17.085)

Presence is for everybody. We're not all in the same position to be as present.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (40:24.03)

Yeah, for sure. And having and that idea of like, the person who's trying to sell you what presence is, is the person who's telling you that if you are not 100% in this lane, that you're not part of the club.

Justine Carino (40:37.925)

Yes, absolutely. And so that's an all or nothing, right? That's the black or white thinking, that's the all or nothing, that's the perfectionism, and we need the gray. What do we really mean about what this is to each and every one of us, right? And we're gonna create our own boundaries to create our own sense of presence, but I think there is a lot out there that makes us feel.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (40:43.288)

Mm-hmm.

Justine Carino (41:02.533)

Like we're doing something wrong, so we have to jump in the club and buy the product to feel like we're doing this, the X, Y, and Z, to be more present, which isn't really possible all the time.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (41:15.086)

Right, right. And if the end piece of it is, you'll be okay as long as you buy this. Like that sales cycle, sales strategy that just keeps coming in all these different ways, right? It's like the eclipse party. Like how could you have missed out on this? Like buy my eclipse party package and like you'll be fine, right? So it's like the person who's like, oh my God, I didn't realize I had to do all of this. I'm gonna go on Amazon and buy this thing and then I'll be okay. Then I'll be saved from the guilt and all of that peace. And I read, oh, and I read somewhere that our generation is the generation that has the highest level of estrangement from parents.

Justine Carino (41:54.569)

Absolutely. NOOO

Dr. Ashley Blackington (42:08.102)

And our generation is the generation that is doing the work when it comes to mental health, when it comes to priorities, when it comes to planning, when it comes to like all of these pieces, like very, very much of a bigger picture look at family.

Justine Carino (42:28.265)

Okay.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (42:36.674)

And how, you know, when you, even talking about like gentle parenting, not in the extreme, but saying like, this is what we're gonna do. And talking about like, you know, teaching your kid bodily autonomy and teaching your kid to advocate for themselves and teaching your kid, you know, what the actual body parts are called. And all of those pieces where you have this generation before that's like, nah, don't worry about it. Oh, give me a hug. Oh, whatever, you know, all those pieces, like the disconnect or the rub between those is so big that people are like, you know what, the answer is no. And I wonder too, like, because you see people that have such pressure around expectation and around where they should be and what they should be doing. Like if you encounter that in practice as well.

Justine Carino (43:20.961)

Yeah, so are you curious about why the estrangement is so big for this generation between the parents?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (43:29.302)

I'm wondering, yeah, I'm wondering like, is this something that you encounter? Because I feel like when we talk about anxiety and we talk about where anxiety comes from and where values come from, like our values are informed by our upbringing. And so when you have that, people are sort of reconciling where they believe as parents versus where they're supposed to believe as children of.

Justine Carino (43:55.233)

Yes, yes. I mean, it's funny you bring this up, because I posted a reel yesterday about cancel culture and cutoff in family. And it was like, it's just a silly reel I created, like just a silly, like, oh, this is a funny, like audio, I'll relate it to this. And it was like how I feel when people prematurely cut off family members to hop on, like cancel culture.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (44:05.513)

Oh, nice.

Justine Carino (44:23.609)

And some people were very mad at me about this reel in the comments section and very defensive. And it was interesting. I never get any traffic on any reels, but this particular topic, and I said, do you agree or disagree? So I invited the conversation and I got some strong reactions to it. I think there has to be a process for estrangement and cut off before we get there. I think a lot of it is premature. And I think what's missing, like you're saying, is like we have our generation of parents that are very different than our parents were. 

A lot of people today are getting mad at their parents for not raising them a certain way or being available in a certain way or this that and the other and they're not doing the work to explore the reasonings behind why their parents were that way. Like, let's go up a generation. What were your grandparents like? What was going on at that time?

What was the norm back then, right? How did the pendulum swing? And so people are angry, like, wow, like you really messed me up, mom and dad, and I'm angry at you for it, right? And I believe like there are certain things that, yeah, maybe we're better off being estranged or cut off, right? And like physical abuse, emotional abuse, neglect, all of that, yeah, maybe you've decided you shouldn't have a relationship with this person.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (46:02.409)

Mm.

Justine Carino (46:23.097)

Maybe you figured out it's best for everybody. But I think that there's a lot of all or nothing thinking you were bad to me at one point So goodbye, right and there's no room for learning the great areas or like how we can Keep some kind of connection in this family. It doesn't mean we're going to agree with everything But it means maybe we have a new set of boundaries Maybe we're practicing new communication skills. Maybe we're trying to understand our parents for who they were maybe we're understanding the time in which they raised us and how things are different and we have more resources than they once had, maybe we can have a conversation about this. And unfortunately, some parents, the families who can have that conversation and it might lead to cutoff, but what I see as a therapist, people say they're cut off, but they're not because physically, they're not seeing or talking to that person, but emotionally, they're angry, they're resentful, there's unprocessed emotions, and they spend a lot of time talking about this cutoff then where they could probably be spend some time trying to figure out how can I feel good in this relationship with a set of boundaries. Does that make sense?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (47:01.042)

Yeah, yeah, I like the fact that you point out like, cause I think too a lot of times what happens is people apply like that all or none to like, everyone should be in this relationship or like that's bad, right? And then to have the caveat when it comes to like, abuse, neglect those pieces, because in that regard, like, are you going to be able to have those conversations around boundaries and are you gonna be able to connect with people in a way that is meaningful given the level of trauma that happened and how it occurred? And think too, there is a lot of stuff out there when it comes to social media and people like that are saying, you just have to give it a chance, right?

Justine Carino (47:37.843)

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (47:58.018)

And it's like, there are people that yes, and if you wanna have these conversations, I think that's great. And I think that if you wanna get to a place where it works together to collaborate, that's great, but also recognizing when, like the relationship that you wanna have is not capable of being because the person that you wanna have that relationship with is not able to move to that point, is not able to see that point. So I think that's also another thing that's really important to talk about because it is something that is happening often, I believe, around us.

Justine Carino (48:27.005)

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I think there's a process and each individual circumstance is unique, right? And I think you have to talk it out and figure out how do I reconcile this relationship or make it work for who I am today? And once I go through this process and realize it can't be reconciled, then I feel better about the cutoff or the estrangement. But I think it happens way too quickly, right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (48:53.665)

Yeah.

Justine Carino (48:55.965)

I think there's been a narrative around what's toxic and let's cut people out. They're not 100% what I need them to be without really getting the nuances behind it.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (49:05.258)

Yeah, and I feel like that also contributes to this, the anxiety of present day parenting, right? Cause it's like, well, I didn't realize all of this stuff was happening. And then this is the result that came from that. You know, it's the idea of like you were saying earlier, like parents think that their kids are not gonna talk to them when they're 12. And it's like, it's that, that adage of like, if you think you're doing, you know, something wrong, you're probably not because you're actually thinking about it. Like if you think that you're a bad parent, the likelihood that you are a bad parent is very small because you have the realization and the awareness and the capacity and the like, give a crap really for lack of a better to like want to do something differently. So like you would be the approachable parent down the line if there is no piece that's coming.

Justine Carino (49:55.326)

Yes.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (49:58.754)

So you would be what you're looking for anyways if that's what you're looking for in your own life. So like, carry on.

Justine Carino (50:06.729)

Absolutely, absolutely. You can upset it better. And then what's interesting too, like in our research and in my training with the boolean family system, which is a certain type of family therapy, we learn that when there is a cutoff in a family, usually we overcompensate by becoming too enmeshed with other family members because of that. So like if we're not talking to our parents, now we're hyper-focused on ourselves as parents and become really wrapped up and enmeshed and trying to correct and overcompensate for what we lacked. 

And then unfortunately that's gonna kick us in the ass later because then our kids are gonna be like, get away, you're on top of me, you're not letting me be who I wanna be. Now we've repeated the pattern of now our kids might be us and now look what's happened. You're cut off from your parents and your kids have now cut you off because you have now elevated your relate then as a way to try and heal your past traumas and that's not what they needed either. So it's very interesting, like usually a cutoff. When I see that in a family system, I'm looking where's the investment? What's comp? Where's the compensation for this?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (51:21.45)

Yeah, yeah, because it's that energy that has to go somewhere. Unless you do, which is the thing that you do and which is the thing that you do professionally and personally is you get help. You ask for help. You find help because it's that idea of like when you're like when your engine is running so fast, like when you are used to being overwhelmed, when you are used to like living in that space and you no longer are in that space.

Justine Carino (51:34.97)

Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (51:49.214)

You can't slow down the engine on your own, which is why you get help, why you call people.

Justine Carino (51:55.217)

Absolutely.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (51:59.914)

Yeah, I love it. I love what you're doing. Because I think too, like when we say, the idea for a very long time was that, anxiety is a problem with you. Or you know what I mean?

Justine Carino (52:22.707)

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (52:29.73)

Like when it wasn't this thing that was explored in therapy as much, like it was very pathologized versus a response to, it's like there's something wrong with you, you have anxiety versus you are feeling anxious and you have this because of this, like we're addressing the issue now. So having the programs in place and at various levels where people are able to say, okay, I'm not ready for that, but I wanna do this, I'm thinking about doing this, I'm gonna get on the wait list, but I need help here. And you're meeting people really in a lot of different levels where they're at to provide space. I love it.

Justine Carino (52:50.261)

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, and not everything is an anxiety disorder, right? And I try to educate, like, we're all anxious. That's a normal human emotion. There's certain requirements to label it anxiety disorder, whether it's OCD, panic disorder, generalized anxiety, right? But then there's also people that struggle. It's like high functioning anxiety or anxiety, they have a big relationship with it.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (52:57.846)

Yes.

Justine Carino (53:16.013)

How can we change your lifestyle? How can we set boundaries? How can we learn about your role that you're taking on that is feeding higher levels of anxiety that you're not meeting criteria for an anxiety disorder with? Helping people piece that apart too.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (53:28.107)

I love it. Well, can you let everybody know where they can find you? Because I think that regardless, if they don't live in New York or Connecticut and they have questions, you have a ton of resources available. And so I think that the more opportunity people have to find resources in whatever capacity they can, maybe it will lead to a one-on-one in their state, or maybe it will lead to wherever they need help. So where can people find you?

Justine Carino (53:54.717)

Absolutely. So my website is Carino Counseling services You’ll find all information about my private practice there. You will also find my coaching services, whether it's one-to-one or that group for ambitious working moms. And my podcast is Thoughts from the Couch, and that's just a ton of content for women who are struggling with the people-pleasing and the perfectionism as mothers. And my Instagram is @Thoughts.from.the.Couch.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (54:28.942)

I love it. That's an awesome name too, by the way, for a podcast. I just it cracks me up when I when I saw it. I was like, oh, fun. I love I love when people are like they just you just own it, right? You're not just like, you know, Carino Counseling Podcast. It's like this is what we're doing. I love it.

Justine Carino (54:32.305)

Thank you. Yeah, this is and that's how it started, right? I always wanted a podcast and as a psychotherapist, like after sessions, I'd be like, Ooh, I love that thought that my client had or I had as a result of this. People need to know the thoughts coming from this therapy couch. And I was like, ah, that's going to be the name of the podcast. Thoughts from the couch. Nothing too fancy. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you, Ashley. I really appreciate this.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (55:04.13)

That's awesome. I love it. Well, thank you so much. Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you so much for joining me. And I will. Yeah, and I will put all of your links in the show notes and enjoy your Monday.

Justine Carino (55:19.313)

Thank you, you too.